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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 11th Mar 2019, 12:30
  #6021 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
What amazes me most of all about Brexit is that after thirty three months so little has been achieved. We really are no closer to leaving today that we were the day after the vote. Of course some will blame the EU, but the truth of the matter is that the scale of the promises, and therefore the expectations, were out of all kilter to what was possible to achieve.

People like Fox ramped those hopes even higher with their claims of easy trade deals and then just failed to deliver. Now we are told we have deadlock. Well actually, we always did.
The exit negotiation is the easy one: we have only had one body to deal with.

The trade deals will be far more complex and challenging - we'll be negotiating with the EU and USA in parallel, but they will have conflicting requirements for instance on food standards.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 12:30
  #6022 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
The lights are going out all over Europe. It's time to close the door gently as you leave, thankful that you are able to do so and secure in the knowledge that there is no finer thing than to be born an Englishman.

Absolutely....

Most people on here only see events from a UK perspective, not from the perspective of those of us still trapped inside what will be a seriously wounded EU without the UK.

If the UK does leave on March 29th without some 'agreed-agreement-to-agree-an-agreement-at-an-agreed-date-in-the-future' the recriminations and repercussions will not be limited to the UK alone. France and Germany look as though they both have internal trouble and strife on the horizon ; the ongoing problems with Merkel's million ; Italian banks : rise of right wing nationalism right across the EU ; economic turn-down looking more likely than not.....

It needs a particular rabid EU apologist to believe that all will be rosey in the EU's back garden after March 29th - with or without the UK.

Suits my own agenda, of course, but everything to date about the UK trying to leave the EU in a 'suits both of us' way just proves how much the EU directly and indirectly controls every day life for its members' residents and citizens and drags them into problems and situations which are nothing to do with their own country but which are compulsorily dumped on us all whether we are responsible or not.

And the reason ? Nothing more than a handful of fanatical politicians supported by Big Business which thrives in the EU's protectionist markets.





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Old 11th Mar 2019, 12:39
  #6023 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
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What a load of hateful tosh.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 12:45
  #6024 (permalink)  
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With apologies to Elton John..." and it's no compromise, just a simple word....the UK and EU..in two separate worlds "

The B side will be Arlene and the DUPettes ..." No Suurender "


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...downing-street
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 13:16
  #6025 (permalink)  
 
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We'll have no Papism....HEEERE!
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 13:23
  #6026 (permalink)  
 
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we'll be negotiating with the EU and USA in parallel,
There will be no point going near the EU for a good long while.

For a start they will be bitching about payment of the alleged cash that the UK owes it, and still bitter and twisted that project fear and the bluff didn't work. Fishing rights will kick off extremely quickly anyway.

And quiet quickly a load of the trade deals the EU has with other countries will start having issues due to the UK being outside the CU and they are fundamentally changed from when they were negotiated.

So its going to be a global poo hitting the fan trade deal wise.

The UK has already wasted 2 years talking to a brick wall with the EU it should be the last on the list to talk to once the UK is out.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 13:29
  #6027 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
What a load of hateful tosh.
I am not in agreement with how it was presented or all the points raised.

But there are some points in there which are facts. All is not rosy in EU land. Their lack of growth is causing big problems. The Italian banks are in no way healthy. The central bank has had to re start a new round of TLTRO. This is just trying to kick the financial problems further down the road rather than facing them now. Whether that is because of BREXIT negotiations I don't know. The Target2 costs are out of this world.
EU are braced for a predicted rise in right leaning parties in the EU elections, gaining many more seats. Not what they want.
The word you might use is populist. Others might consider it the people having a say.

And finally, the EU is protectionist in its trade deals.

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 13:42
  #6028 (permalink)  
 
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Neither are the Spanish banks in a good state.

740 billion euros have been loaned out in the last round of which 50% are split between Italy and Spain. And they are due to be repaid in the next year starting June.

Both countries are likely to have huge difficulties this summer.

And finally, the EU is protectionist in its trade deals.
It is and its just about to loose its main import market it sells to get those trade deals.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 13:53
  #6029 (permalink)  
 
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The Italian banks have been a basket case for decades. Quite why you would lay this out as a criticism of the EU as a whole is weird. Populism, which you apparently confuse with democracy is revealing. Populism is inherently contradictory. It relies on people seeking power & thereby becoming by definition, elite, dividing people into the 'real' people & the corrupt elites, which of course they aren't...

See Nigel Farage's Twitter feed in which a man who has been an MEP for twenty years & failed to enter Parliament on seven separate occasions, being beaten into third on his last attempt by a man in a dolphin costume, regularly rails against the 'political classes'. This is so transparently obvious that one wonders why anyone possessed of critical faculties would fail to see the con.

As for protectionism, all countries erect trade barriers, all of them. You can look up al 154 nations & you won't find - barring Hong Kong - one that doesn't. If however, your contention is the EU is running a distasteful racket, then consider this: If you look at Bound, average, weighted or mean tariffs, you will find the EU's trade regime middling. The weighted tariff overall schedule came in in 2015 at 3%. That's higher than the USA at 2.3% & Japan at 2.1% but lower than Australia at 4%, Canada at 3.1% & way below Brazil at 10%.

You can drill into the detail & find higher schedules in sectors - farming 7.8% vs USA at 3.8% but then there's always Switzerland at 30%. So, the old saying goes a lie is half way round the world before the truth has it's boots on but it's nonetheless so easy to just rattle off a line 'The EU is protectionist' as a means of propping up an entire viewpoint, but as ever and especially for Brexiters, the truth is so much more nuanced than an easy, throwaway, persuasive sound bite.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 14:09
  #6030 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
What a load of hateful tosh.
After the sheer quantity of vitriol you have let forth, this comment is laughable.
As ever the true zealot is oblivious to their own hypocrisy
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 14:10
  #6031 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks. Thanks for playing. means a lot.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 14:12
  #6032 (permalink)  
 
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Of course the Eu is protectionist in its trade deals-Every country on earth is especially USA , Airbus vs Boeing Tankers for one example

Also the Eu is big enough to stand up to the US but lil old England is nt and that will be one very short negotiation- Sign her Mr Fox and get back on the plane, no need to worry about chlorinated chicken , steriods and hormones they are all good for you , but we are your oldest friends aren't we, actuall buddy you are our oldest enemies . The Chinese and Indians are slavering to do trade deals with us , I mean they look back fondly over the time we humialited them in the Opium wars , giving us Hong Kong and of course we ruled India by military force -they love us

We have almost no real exports and run one of the biggest trade deficits in the world . The main chance of protecting our industries is the EU. Of course they will collapse in days because we will never buy Mercs BMWs Audis and VWs again -we will buy British cars like those made in Sunderland and Swindon , they are Japanese-what do you mean. Anyway the Japs love us as a fellow Island race we are just like them -except we dont have a massive industrial base, giant tech companies, massive trade protection barreirs and another 120 odd million people .

I know we are British (ie English) and therefore the best in the world at everything and never tell lies or backslide on agreements or cheat our elderly and disadvantaged and choose US controlled nuclear weapons over a good health service and would sell our police and fire services just as soon as we would sell used car but we are british and we have won everywar we have been in and had the greatest fleet in the world two hundred years ago and if only these blood sucking Europeans who cannot really be our kith and kin can they after all they are foreigners not English men with only English blood in our veins (oh along with a bit of German French Scandi Dutch Italian and Spanish ). We have the best newspapers in the world too look at the lack of bias shown by the Express telegraph Sun and Daily Mail -they are never wrong and completely unbiased and patriotic to the core , Alright the Mail did support Hitler but that was long time ago)

No the day of glory is at hand (what ? thats the opening line of the Marseillaise , bloody cowards the french -where were they when we are running away at Dunkirk ? what do mean it was a battle lost -who the hell said that the traitor, Oh it was Churchill , well he must have been drunk at the time he did like snifter you know)

But we will thrive -we have no money, no influence, will run out of power in 15 years and no one will invest in building new power stations and our utilities and London buses are largely foreign owned as are our health care companies. But so what we will have taken back control and given it to people , nay giants of the politcal world like Liam Fox , and Michael Gove. Honest upstanding men of strong traditonal family values like Boris Johnson who was so so good as Foreign Sec and like the so aptly name Theresa May who despite being close to mentally ill struggles on to ensure brexit is achived fr all but specially for her Merchant banker hubby who stands to make millions from it . Men like Nigel farage , a currency broker , that ost revered of professions and Englsih to the core a man who will willing ly give up his travel rights just to he can wave that cherished Blue British passport , what on earth do you mean that his wife is German and so non of that will apply to him or his family -surely he puts the country first .

And thats what we have achieved in 33 months only WE could do that

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 14:29
  #6033 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Populism, which you apparently confuse with democracy is revealing. Populism is inherently contradictory. It relies on people seeking power & thereby becoming by definition, elite, dividing people into the 'real' people & the corrupt elites, which of course they aren't...
Explain how any would be counsellor/MP is not populist then? They are standing to achieve power. Power to make a difference for those they wish to represent. That is how they get elected. They make promises and hope that people will trust them to achieve these promises.
The Independent Group must be populist as well. They have decided that they cannot support the parties that enabled them to be elected. As for momentum, what are they classed as?

Corrupt elites, how about some of those members of the House Of Lords. Never have been elected, yet have power. They abuse the taxpayers money through theft and fraud.

Populist has been used as an insult.

Below is just one definition.

populist
/ˈpɒpjʊlɪst/
noun
  1. 1.
    a person, especially a politician, who strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.
    "he ran as a populist on an anti-corruption platform"
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 14:42
  #6034 (permalink)  
 
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You answered your own question in the last sentence really. Populism at its purest level seeks to unify people against (what they tell you) is a common enemy. Usually this is embodied by the existing establishment but as we see with Le Pen, Farage etc. it can be foreigners, immigrants etc. It's not confined to left or right yet observably it's the case that a majority of populists around today are right wing.

In essence, it's a variation on the oldest trick in the book, offer a simple solution to complex problems.

Take a bunch of unhappy people, who for example, lost a fair few quid because a bunch of investment bankers in the states decided to bundle extremely dodgy mortgages up into alluring financial products, sell them around the place with the end result of causing a global financial crisis, leading to runs on banks, enormous government bail outs, years of budget cuts & a general economic malaise & in steps one Nigel Farage & pals telling you the reason you can't get a GP appointment is because the Romanians are hogging it all but if you vote UKIP, we'll tell the EU to stick it, kick them all out & all will be well again.

It's lies. But it's got all the hallmarks. Easily identifiable hate figures, an easy solution, a way out. All you have to do is vote for Nigel. See Trump & Mexicans, Orban & Soros, the pattern repeats wherever you find these humps.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 16:37
  #6035 (permalink)  
 
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The Italian banks have been a basket case for decades. Quite why you would lay this out as a criticism of the EU as a whole is weird.
Simply because the EU drive towards locking all the separate countries into a fiscal union (the dollar is essentially what keeps the USA United) allowed wildly different levels of fiscal responsibility into a single currency, and blithely ignored their own internal rules to permit this.

'Ever greater union' is the aim and nothing must get in the way. The UK may be walking towards a cliff edge, the EU is manufacturing one of its own, and the cliff is much higher.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 16:48
  #6036 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post

'Ever greater union' is the aim and nothing must get in the way. .
The very structure of our membership contradicts this, but hey, why should leavers break the habit of a lifetime now?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 16:50
  #6037 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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The UK may be walking towards a cliff edge, the EU is manufacturing one of its own, and the cliff is much higher.
The UK's cliff edge is staring us in the face, and likely to be a great deal worse than what at worst could possibly be a steadier more manageable decline within the EU27. However I really don't buy the "imminent demise of the EU" talk. It is for the most part wishful thinking on behalf of a cohort of (not exclusively British) sceptics to would like to see the EU fail.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:00
  #6038 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
The UK's cliff edge is staring us in the face, and likely to be a great deal worse than what at worst could possibly be a steadier more manageable decline within the EU27. However I really don't buy the "imminent demise of the EU" talk. It is for the most part wishful thinking on behalf of a cohort of (not exclusively British) sceptics to would like to see the EU fail.
As you say, wishful thinking.
When they said the EU would be forced to roll over and give us a wonderful exit deal, they were wrong.
Now they say the EU will collapse. Wrong again.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:07
  #6039 (permalink)  
 
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I just love the way your opinions are facts, opposing points of view are 'hateful tosh'. Revisiting an archive of this thread in 2029 may be of amusement value..
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:10
  #6040 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
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They have to come up with this stuff. In the face of an overwhelming realisation we are heading for a monumental act of self harm, all that remains is to point at the EU & try to come up with any narrative describing their faults. No longer can they try to convince us there are any benefits of this, now it's all about painting the picture of leaving an abusive relationship. It's risible.
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