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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 24th Nov 2018, 23:10
  #581 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
Am I the only person to think that the word "Evil" is tossed about far too casually.

Hitler was evil. Stalin was evil. Pol Pot was evil. Whatever faults JRM has, he doesn't fall into that category.
Agree with the sentiment, but isn‘t evil a religious concept? So the object isn’t even entirely responsible for that bad behavior after all.

What about wicked? Does however run the risk of ascribing kudos to some pretty poor role models.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 07:11
  #582 (permalink)  
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Dear Treeza,

Thanks for the letter which arrived today.

It was heart warming to read the bit about " ending free movement for ever " or something like that, Don't worry therefore if you hear lots of high pitch shrieking later, this won't be coming from the nightingales in Berkeley Square, but from all those happy Mail reader and UKIP voter households across the UK to show their delight at your commitment to "the people " apart from those us who think this is detrimental to the UK that is.

Also, it was nice to see to you sticking with the tried and trusted slogan, "taking back control ". This always appeals to those in the UK for whom xenophobia is a genetic trait and usually associated with your core voters, otherwise known as Little and / or Middle England.

I see you intend to campaign with your "heart and soul " which is interesting because as sources go for inspiration, both are already devoid of any content. And, it seems, you may be venturing out of the cocoon of Westminster to speak to "the people ". This could be quite entertaining really, given that your previous excursions during the GE were, at best, and I don't want to sound disparaging here, but, utter crap would be an understatement because you really don't like meeting people do you. Possibly not a good idea to include your latest song and dance routine either, but why not, because you will probably only be addressing a carefully selected audience who will duly break into rapturous applause when you do.

Of course, rather than write a letter to the masses, and heaven knows how the Royal Mail would cope with a deluge of replies as Christmas approached, here's a suggestion that would enable the masses to respond.

Why not call a General Election and then we, that's the plebs and oiks in UK society for whom you have nothing but disdain, could then reply in person with a large "X" but not against a Tory candidates name.

Yours,

A UK voter who thinks you make your predecessor Dave look almost statesmanlike.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46333338

PS. please read the eloquent sentiment on the wall....


Last edited by Krystal n chips; 25th Nov 2018 at 07:37.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 07:30
  #583 (permalink)  
 
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Pax, the greatest act of betrayal by parliament is ignoring the 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU. Our parliament has become a mini Eu which has itself ignored the results of numerous referendums in the past. The govt has stated several times that a second referendum is not goint to happen so expect the date to be announced any time.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 08:06
  #584 (permalink)  
 
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The letter from Mrs May does tend to smack of desperation, it now looks like that no one from either camp supports this, however I suspect this is about as good as it gets in practical terms. As a convinced leave supporter I am very uneasy about Boris and his clique, Corbyn has managed to get this far without giving anyone the slightest idea of his position on the EU and a small handful of Irish "loyalists" now have the power to topple the UK Government.
What was a simple binary exercise, leave or remain, hard or soft exit, has now become a huge mess created by the desire to compromise. The Tories should have had the courage to make a committed Leave supporter the PM, not one of the showmen like Boris but a careful politician capable of seeing this through, I have respect for the efforts that Mrs May has made but she has simply messed up.
For those of us that don't have the rose tinted glasses to view the strikes, unions, un emptied dustbins and three day weeks of the 1970s with warm nostalgia the possibility of a Corbyn led Government is horrifying, but the Tories have only themselves to blame, pity about the rest of us.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 09:10
  #585 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
This whole shenanigan from start to finish has been the most unbelievable political cock up imaginable. Apart from of course it's not finished and shows no sign of being. Has there ever been such a momentous political miscalculation with no side emerging with any merit whatsoever?
Spot on, and it brings out emotive diatribes by several JBs here that are, in the end, no more than extreme personal opinions.

Business is right to be worried as politicians on both sides of the Channel, as well as at home, have displayed incompetence and intransigence.

When we voted to leave I am pretty sure no one mentioned a divorce bill. I think many thought as Farage said in the European Parliament on 17 June that out was out.

Project Fear would have been better to emphasis the £39bn or so cost of our budget commitment after we left, the two year legal process after we began the process, the practical issues of EU tariffs on our exports.

​​​​​​Brexiteers should have acknowledged that leaving was not instantaneous, that we could establish lower global import tariffs than the EU. No one, as far as I know, has actually done a tariff comparison.

VAT is a fiscal tool where Chancellors may reduce the tax below 15% or remove it. But they may also raise it to 25 or 30% and keep the money. And no one has pointed out his much lower IVA is in many European countries.

My own view is that much dislike of the EU project in Britain has been our deliberate refusal to publicise benefits. Where a development has benefitted from EU funds we make little attempt to acknowledge it. We have been in the EU but always one pace removed.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 09:56
  #586 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
but a careful politician capable of seeing this through, I have respect for the efforts that Mrs May has made but she has simply messed up.
For those of us that don't have the rose tinted glasses to view the strikes, unions, un emptied dustbins and three day weeks of the 1970s with warm nostalgia the possibility of a Corbyn led Government is horrifying, but the Tories have only themselves to blame, pity about the rest of us.
Anybody in particular you had in mind here ?......albeit another contributor also expressed similar sentiments but, when asked for nominees, has, thus far been strangely reluctant to name some. There again, as the number of candidates can be quantified as......zero, then this is understandable to an extent.

Respect for Treeza ?.......again, easily quantified....... as above.

And it may amaze you to learn, that, nobody has any rose tinted glasses or nostalgic memories......apart from those convinced that any Labour Gov't in the future will induce a reprise as a feature of their policies that is .....this prognosis is very popular here on JB so the chaps will duly concur as a matter of principle with you.....unless, of course, you are privy as to how Labour intends to transmogrify these memories into 21st century governance . ?
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 10:05
  #587 (permalink)  
 
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unless, of course, you are privy as to how Labour intends to transmogrify these memories into 21st century governance . ?
Nationalise all public services, put unions in the boardroom, have Miss Diane as Home Secretary and drive out all entrepreneurs with their failed tax policies, take over legaly owned premises in inner cities - these are only what they admit to, the reality may be far worse.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 10:07
  #588 (permalink)  
 
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ATNotts, would they dare?

In fact, is their anyone else who would now back TM’s deal? Her latest concession seems insane if she is seriously looking for any support from any other party - I ignore her own, as I can’t see even her cabinet supporting this, and would expect more resignations to follow tomorrow.
I a word - yes.

Corbyn has one aim, and that is to gain power. This would give him his best opportunity to do so. Sure some of his MPs wouldn't following the whip he'd probably place on them, but there are plenty on the other side who won't either.

I believe that if he did, and May's agreement gets through, the only chance of him winning the election would be if an unelectable extreme Brexiteer, such as JR-M took the helm of the Tory party. If someone more moderate, such as Raab got the job, then his gamble could well fail.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 10:08
  #589 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
but isn‘t evil a religious concept?
I like Granny Weatherwax' definition of evil, that doesn't need any religion: "Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things"
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 10:16
  #590 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
My own view is that much dislike of the EU project in Britain has been our deliberate refusal to publicise benefits. Where a development has benefitted from EU funds we make little attempt to acknowledge it. We have been in the EU but always one pace removed.
Of course there are lots of benefits of being in the EU. I can't believe anyone could say otherwise.
But your comment above re EU Funds. The EU does not have money. It is taxpayers money, or in the EU's case those countries who are net contributors. So the money spent on UK projects is our own money. So credit should be given correctly.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 10:36
  #591 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
Nationalise all public services, put unions in the boardroom, have Miss Diane as Home Secretary and drive out all entrepreneurs with their failed tax policies, take over legaly owned premises in inner cities - these are only what they admit to, the reality may be far worse.
Can we take it you have shares in those public services that have been privatised then ?.......actually, sorry to spoil the hysteria here, but returning services to public ownership isn't quite as simple as it sounds, very attractive though the proposition is.

I think it would be fair to surmise, that, while JB's favourite Labour female MP may get a position in a new Gov't, it may not be one that is overly prominent or influential
Drive out entrepreneurs.......not entirely unrelated to your angst about "legally owned premises " so I take it the reality of house building for those who don't have homes, as such, doesn't bother you......

Mind you, Treeza mentions this in her letter....there again, she's mentioned it quite a few times in the past as well....nothing beats the regurgitation of such policies that will never come to fruition when appealing to an electorate really.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...fraction-value

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 25th Nov 2018 at 11:33.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 10:40
  #592 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I a word - yes.

Corbyn has one aim, and that is to gain power. This would give him his best opportunity to do so. Sure some of his MPs wouldn't following the whip he'd probably place on them, but there are plenty on the other side who won't either.

I believe that if he did, and May's agreement gets through, the only chance of him winning the election would be if an unelectable extreme Brexiteer, such as JR-M took the helm of the Tory party. If someone more moderate, such as Raab got the job, then his gamble could well fail.
But you still assume that Labour has to beat the Tories in a straight fight, in an ordinary election.

The next GE will be an extraordinary one. A few years of post-Brexit disruption, continuing austerity, a fractured Tory party blamed for everything that has gone wrong, and voters looking for something, anything to replace them.

Then it just needs an elderly Corbyn to be replaced by the youthful Keir Starmer, and he will sweep into power like Tony Blair.

I've been saying for the past two years that there would never be a satisfactory Brexit deal, and that the following mess would be allow in a Labour government. I see no reason to change that prediction now.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 11:25
  #593 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Theresa May has given way to Madrid’s demands over the future of Gibraltar after the Spanish prime minister threatened to “veto” the Brexit deal due to be signed off by EU leaders on Sunday.
Is that a surprise? She's given way on just about everything else. It's not as if Spain even had a veto in the first place.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 11:41
  #594 (permalink)  
 
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For those who live on planet earth, this wasn't May giving in, this has been in the process for the majority of a year. It's Spain's PM scoring domestic political points with something already settled.
But hey, the rabid brexiteers can use it as another incorrect stick to beat May with. When have they ever bothered with the truth?
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 13:06
  #595 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


Of course there are lots of benefits of being in the EU. I can't believe anyone could say otherwise.
But your comment above re EU Funds. The EU does not have money. It is taxpayers money, or in the EU's case those countries who are net contributors. So the money spent on UK projects is our own money. So credit should be given correctly.
That is of course true and not withstanding our rebate we still pay more in than we get out. The other aspect of EU funding is that the EU allocates funds to a regional project and effectively bypassed our central Government. A good case for self -Government.

Now one case of EU funding that puzzled me was a local garden centre that receive EU funding. It had a blue plaque in an obscure location recognising the EU contribution, but I have no idea why. The garden centre/nursery had been in exist for over 100 years and recently the family sold the garden centre to a national company but retained the nursery.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 13:52
  #596 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
But you still assume that Labour has to beat the Tories in a straight fight, in an ordinary election.

The next GE will be an extraordinary one. A few years of post-Brexit disruption, continuing austerity, a fractured Tory party blamed for everything that has gone wrong, and voters looking for something, anything to replace them.

Then it just needs an elderly Corbyn to be replaced by the youthful Keir Starmer, and he will sweep into power like Tony Blair.

I've been saying for the past two years that there would never be a satisfactory Brexit deal, and that the following mess would be allow in a Labour government. I see no reason to change that prediction now.
Clearly the next election will be an interesting one, with, whatever happens UKIP and the LibDems back in play. The former railing against the Tories for "giving away everything to Brussels (if the deal goes through) or crying fowl if the upshot is a new referendum and the whole process binned. The LibDems could gain tremendously with more hardline remainers, though would clearly have less to gain if there was a stop to Brexit before the GE.

Of course if Labour manage to convince the electorate that they could re-open negotiations with the EU (which as we all know is a total fantasy) then they could garner more votes than they otherwise might. I don't buy Corbyn being replaced by anyone from the "sensible" wing of Labour; Momentum appear to have got their claws far too deep into the party for that to happen for 5 or so years. Labour would need to lose the next GE for that to happen.

It will be the Conservatives for a variety of (mostly Brexit related) reasons will be the big losers, possibly fracturing completely.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 14:16
  #597 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
The LibDems ... would clearly have less to gain if there was a stop to Brexit before the GE.
Wrong. Stopping #brexit would be the biggest gain imaginable for us. Anything else (votes, seat nos., etc) is supremely insignificant in comparison.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 14:18
  #598 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Wrong. Stopping #brexit would be the biggest gain imaginable for us. Anything else (votes, seat nos., etc) is supremely insignificant in comparison.
Absolutely it would, but what really counts is vote share and / or parliamentary seats. Being able to say "I told you so" however is always a good feeling.
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 15:06
  #599 (permalink)  
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" whatever happens UKIP and the LibDems back in play."

Erm, you may have missed the fact UKIP barely exist and, hopefully, thanks to their latest acquisition in his "advisory capacity ", other than any desperate BNP / EDL rejects that is, won't exactly be attracting the voting public......that's assuming they aren't engaged in their 673rd leadership election of course

." It will be the Conservatives for a variety of (mostly Brexit related) reasons will be the big losers, possibly fracturing completely"

It won't come as a major shock when I say I find the above to be a very enticing prospect.......
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Old 25th Nov 2018, 15:17
  #600 (permalink)  
 
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What will change ?
Not much.
Putting a remoaner in charge of the departure has created an opportunity to destroy the result of the referendum .
What will change ? Giving a Veto to the EU will mean any changes will be in name only
The new world order has dictated that a Republican United States of Europe will happen whether the UK agrees or not . A free republic is the only way to stop the bickering between the inbred European Royals from another family argument like WW1 .
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