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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 8th Mar 2019, 11:37
  #5861 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Slightly different, but granted much the same, and the UK system is flawed for similar reasons; as has been round the hamster wheel several times.
Gerrymandering, for instance?
What about a change to a mix of FPTP and proportional representation as in germany?
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 11:41
  #5862 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
I'm happy to debate with Sally, with Gertrude, with ATN, especially with K&C for years now, and almost everyone else..

However....The member you mention is quite firmly on my Ignore List, because life's too short to be insulted and lectured at because I don't share his opinion on this very specific subject.

Who knows, as they used to say about George W Bush - a great guy to have a beer with, but not fit to run the bar where you're drinking it. It's perhaps the same with this member - he and I might be in total agreement on 99.9% of the rest of life, but it's the other 0.1% which would make it intolerable if his attitude on here is anything to go by

Just try putting him on your Ignore List and you might find the World's a much better place.
They huff & they puff. Funny how it's always the worst reactionaries of the hard line hang 'em & flog 'em right who are the first to start crying when the boot's on the other foot. Snowflakes, the lot of 'em!
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 12:19
  #5863 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
They huff & they puff. Funny how it's always the worst reactionaries of the hard line hang 'em & flog 'em right who are the first to start crying when the boot's on the other foot. Snowflakes, the lot of 'em!
You get a little upset at some names too don't you?
Snowflake
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 12:23
  #5864 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
You get a little upset at some names too don't you?
Snowflake
Names? No.

Random strangers not wired up right who think it's okay to smear someone they've never met as a paedophile because they have a differing political viewpoint? Yes. I find that repugnant. That you don't is all anyone ever needs to know about you.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 12:25
  #5865 (permalink)  
 
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This thread is going down the same plughole as the previous ones. Will it last until 29th March?
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 12:40
  #5866 (permalink)  
 
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 13:09
  #5867 (permalink)  
 
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Today's Muppet show episode is the Government some people want to hand back control too are desperately trying to blame the EU for the current chaos. We started it-its our fault whatever the EU does. But more to the point is the lack of any political understanding . Blaming the Eu will go down well with the Quitters but they already support this view. All it will do for the stayers who read papers with fewer pictures in is to reinforce the view that Brexit is a joke albeit a bad one and the current government an even bigger one.

Its like setting fire to your neighbours shed and then blame him for complaining about the smoke.

Oh and by the way the word for those using the word snowflake about a certain generation or point of view is COWARD
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 13:30
  #5868 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I don't think you understand how elections work. Constituents don't vote for parties as you said. Never have. We vote for individuals.
We all know when we cast our vote at a General Election we are voting to determine which party will govern. Party affiliation is probably utmost in voters mind as they cast their vote. The party membership is on the ballot paper, the candidates wear rosettes, their party membership is stated by the returning officer. We have this thing called 'tactical voting' - it means people vote for a candidate other than their first choice, who they think has a realistic chance of beating the candidate of a party they don't want to see in power. The big swing-ometer on the telly is Red v Blue. As the results come in the score is kept by party, not a list of individual names. Most everyone can tell you which party they voted for, less so the actual name of their MP. Yes, we do vote for an individual MP, but if you don't know that the vast majority of people cast their vote down party political lines you are living in cloud cuckoo land.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 13:41
  #5869 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ThorMos View Post
Gerrymandering, for instance?
What about a change to a mix of FPTP and proportional representation as in germany?
That floats my boat, anything that ensures the outcome more closely represents the proportion of votes cast is an improvement, however as has been made abundantly clear in recent months, UK political parties will need to learn about cooperation and compromise before it would work here.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 13:51
  #5870 (permalink)  
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Oggers, broadly you are correct. It was said you could nominate a dog or a monkey in some seats and she would win.

However there are exceptions where the man gets the vote. I would vote against party for an MP like Frank Field as one who stands on principal.

The converse is true too where safe majorities are over turned when the voters realise their sitting MP is a dick head.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 13:56
  #5871 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oggers View Post
Most everyone can tell you which party they voted for, less so the actual name of their MP. Yes, we do vote for an individual MP, but if you don't know that the vast majority of people cast their vote down party political lines you are living in cloud cuckoo land.
Which makes the comment by the ERG and their ilk ď80% of the population voted for parties that support BREXITĒ a total fallacy (Iím not saying you ever said that by the way). People donít usually donít vote for single issues, swing voters determine the outcome and that comment seems like a desperate attempt to legitimise the total joke that is current UK politics
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 14:05
  #5872 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post


Which makes the comment by the ERG and their ilk ď80% of the population voted for parties that support BREXITĒ a total fallacy (Iím not saying you ever said that by the way). People donít usually donít vote for single issues, swing voters determine the outcome and that comment seems like a desperate attempt to legitimise the total joke that is current UK politics
Well it is true, 80% of votes cast (not of the population) were for Brexit supporting parties, or at least parties who vowed to honour the referendum result, most people vote for the party and policies they dislike least, rather than those they agree with most. Brexit was but one factor in the 2017 election. And a major factor is the leader of the party, which it makes it all the more amazing that Labour did so well!
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 14:33
  #5873 (permalink)  
 
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Labour did well in spite of their leader rather than because of him. As for the 80% argument, well the fact is that two out of three Labour voters are against Brexit. What I don't get is that the Leavers simultaneously rail against a second referendum but insist that the result would be the same. Shurely shome mishtake!
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 15:45
  #5874 (permalink)  
 
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A referendum was held and a decisive majority opted for Brexit. Brexit has not happened yet, so the decision taken by the referendum has not been carried out.

If a second referendum gets called and if the question is different to that of the first referendum, than any result would lack legitimacy because the same criteria will not have been used.

If the second referendum asks the same remain or leave the EU question, with no further qualifiers, then there are two possible outcomes, a decision to leave the EU, or a decision to stay.

A decision to leave merely validates the existing referendum result and serves no real purpose other than to reinforce the public desire to leave the EU. A reversal of the previous vote with a decision to remain merely cancels the result of the initial referendum but does not clearly indicate what should be the next course of action.

So we are now left with the situation where a third referendum needs to be held with a different set of options ranging from a no deal Brexit through to acceptance of complete integration into a federal EU superstate.

The least worst course at present is to accept no deal Brexit on the 29th of March and move on from there. That is the only course of action that complies with the political promises made prior to the referendum and in the subsequent General Election.

The public voted to leave the EU. At no point were they asked to support any plan to indefinitely delay leaving, or to not leave at all. The politicians were issued a clear mandate to leave the EU without preconditions. To suggest anything else is just fudging the issue.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 15:55
  #5875 (permalink)  
 
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EM Those who voted Labour did so after their clearly expressed policy of honouring the referendum result. Those opposed to leaving had the option to vote for Lib Dem; remember ďlend me your voteĒ? Hardly anyone did!

Leave or remain, surely the absolute worst option is delay; prolonged uncertainty is more damaging than any of the options.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 16:07
  #5876 (permalink)  
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The problem with another referendum is voter apathy. By and large people don't like voting frequently. At the time of the first PCC election there were local elections but not pin the same day out I remember. I think the referendum was also on a different day from the locals and pig course the snap election in 2017 was another call to the polls.

Having voted once, can we be sure that we would get a proper representational vote the next time?

Remainers believe they had a moral victory if non voters were counted as in favour of staying in. Leavers believe a majority is a majority, get over it.

Now, suppose inn in a second referendum remainers have a lead of 700,000 on a total turn out of 16,000,000. Would that be used by the remainers to say, told you so, our would leavers call foul?

I submit the chances of a decisive victory from a 33 million turn out its low.
​​​​
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 16:12
  #5877 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
A dodgy referendum was held and a wafer thin technical majority opted for Brexit. Brexit has not happened yet, so the decision taken by the referendum has not been carried out.

If a second referendum gets called and if the question is different to that of the first referendum, than any result would bolster legitimacy because the same criteria will not have been used since we know now what leaving involves.

If the second referendum asks the same remain or leave the EU question, with no further qualifiers, then there are two possible outcomes, a decision to leave the EU, or a decision to stay.

A decision to leave merely validates the existing referendum result and serves no real purpose other than to reinforce the public desire to leave the EU. A reversal of the previous vote with a decision to remain merely cancels the result of the initial referendum and clearly indicates what should be the next course of action I.e back to business as usual

So we are now left with the situation where no further referendums need to be held.

The worst course at present is to accept no deal Brexit on the 29th of March and starve from there. That is the only course of action that complies with the political lies made prior to the referendum and in the subsequent General Election.

The public voted to leave the EU by a wafer thing margin representing a minority in any event At no point was anything approaching the truth relayed to the people. The politicians were issued a clearish mandate to leave the EU without preconditions. To suggest anything else is just common sense in much the same way no sane man would burn down their house to get rid of a mice problem.
Tidied that up a bit.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 16:23
  #5878 (permalink)  
 
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The way I see it the current options are:

1. Accept the bad deal for the UK, but not the EU, leave on 29th March with that deal, and dot Iís & cross Tís over the two-year transition period.
2. Donít accept the bad deal, default exit under WTO rules on the March 29th as per Article 50, sort out deals within the two-year transition period.
3. Donít accept the bad deal but delay exit until the EU re-negotiate the deal, if EU accept delay for this purpose.
4. If deal re-negotiated and still Westminster reject deal, default exit under WTO rules at end of extension period & use any transition period to sort out deals.
5. If deal re-negotiated and Westminster accept deal, leave at the end of the extension period with deal and dot Iís & cross Tís over any transition period.
6. Try to start again with a different deal to the only one the EU have said they accept, i.e. the current bad deal, is this option, in reality, likely to happen and the EU accept this option? (I know Labour and some others think so).
7. Hold another referendum, if leave win again, then what?
8. Hold another referendum, if remain win, then what?
9. Hold a GE, Conservatives win with May in charge, then what?
10. Hold a GE, Conservatives win with someone other than May in charge, then what?
11. Hold a GE, Labour win with Corbyn in charge, then what?
12. Hold GE, Labour win with someone other than Corbyn in charge, then what?
13. Revoke Article 50, is this ever likely to happen?

Any one care to opine/guess what the likely outcome will be, or add any other options that I may have missed.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 16:31
  #5879 (permalink)  
 
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A second ref would solve nothing! No one knows what the question(s) should be, it would just get mired in legalese. Any result would likely be close, possibly a wafer thin victory for one or t'other. If that was Remain all it would mean is Leave would feel (justifiably) cheated and many, including me, would just see it as an establishment stitch up. Social unrest would be possible. If Leave won again, narrowly, you'd still get the Parapunters of this world refusing to accept it.

I'm not running scared, I just don't see the point and I don't believe a majority of the population do either.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 16:36
  #5880 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
EM Those who voted Labour did so after their clearly expressed policy of honouring the referendum result. Those opposed to leaving had the option to vote for Lib Dem; remember ďlend me your voteĒ? Hardly anyone did!

Leave or remain, surely the absolute worst option is delay; prolonged uncertainty is more damaging than any of the options.
That's a very valid point, and one I've made a few times myself. If Remaining was really at the top of so many people's Christmas list why did the LDs tank at the last GE?

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