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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 22nd Feb 2019, 11:45
  #5161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Oh come on, EM. This is Parapunter style mythology land. Nobody, that is in power, is talking about a wholesale scrapping of H&S legislation and workers rights. There was some news footage the other week of Chinese workers having to crawl down the streets on their hands and knees because they failed to met productivity targets - that's not going to happen here, even in the worst possible scenario ever.
The mythology land is on you. Plenty on the right have talked of eroding rights & protections. I'm starting to think that between shouting at Tellys & people in the street and being factually wrong on just about everything you post, you're not really all that much of a thinker on these or indeed any issues.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 11:57
  #5162 (permalink)  
 
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Jeez, you can tell it's Friday. Half day closing at the Remainer land pre-school.....
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 11:58
  #5163 (permalink)  
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It will be interesting what happens regarding the Working Time Directive and the various maternity rules. For some it is a positive benefit for some and a hindrance for others.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 12:02
  #5164 (permalink)  
 
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If we take stock again, there are 36 days before we leave. It's two years since we pressed the countdown button. We are practically no further forward than we were then. The country is irretrievably divided & will remain so for years to come. The main political parties are falling apart before our eyes. Businesses that can are leaving or scaling back massively on investment, capital is taking flight. The housing market is in decline, immigrants who have made lives here are departing in numbers, jeopardising our public services, hate crimes are at record highs, we are stockpiling everything from Insulin to body bags, there are no ferries in the ferry companies & entitled middle aged white men keep invoking past wars & tell us to be optimistic.

And in response, Brexit central says:

Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Jeez, you can tell it's Friday. Half day closing at the Remainer land pre-school.....
Wibble.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 12:15
  #5165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Jeez, you can tell it's Friday. Half day closing at the Remainer land pre-school.....
Again, no facts.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 12:21
  #5166 (permalink)  
 
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Meanwhile the vast majority of the voting public continue to support Leave parties, with LDs all but banished from the political map. Some pollsters even think TIG is pulling voteshare from the LDs !!

Polling Report

Wibble
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 12:30
  #5167 (permalink)  
 
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As I look around the living room, virtually every item in sight originated in China. Same goes for the kitchen and other rooms in the house. Even some of the Ikea furniture comes from China.

There is a reason for this state of affairs and it has nothing to do with the EU. It all comes down to economics and economy of scale in production. Quite simply, it is cheaper at present to produce goods and ship them half way around the world than it is to manufacture them in the EU or the UK. Brexit may change that balance. If it becomes cheaper to produce goods in the UK than import them from abroad, then the UK will manufacture what is needed to satisfy consumer demand.

Ultimately it is all about money. When you examine the arguments for and against leaving the EU, the same applies, it is all about the hypothetical costs of leaving or staying. Even the political control from Brussels/Strasbourg issue comes down to money. A centralised EU body effectively controls the finances for the whole of the EU dictating how much each country can spend and on what projects. It isn't quite as simple as that, but that loss of financial control is what worries the UK establishment.

Of course the UK would like a deal with the EU, but the EU is not prepared to see a loss of control over 15% of their GDP. As I said, it all comes down to money.

Leaving without a deal is the only way to regain independence from the EU. The UK will still be heavily affected by a need to comply with EU regulations and trading restrictions but at least it will have the ability to decide whether the price is worth paying rather than having terms dictated by EU policy.

What about the poor? What about welfare recipients? What about the NHS? What about home owners seeing their property devalued? What about prices?

ALL ABOUT MONEY!
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 12:43
  #5168 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post

Even the political control from Brussels/Strasbourg issue comes down to money. A centralised EU body effectively controls the finances for the whole of the EU dictating how much each country can spend and on what projects. It isn't quite as simple as that,

Oh yes it is.

Those of us in the Eurozone have to have our own National Annual Spending Budgets approved by the EU.

Go ask the Greeks....And the Italians....

But the worrying thing, however, is with the ECB refinancing rate already at 0%, it will be interesting to see what will happen if the German Economy actually does enter into recession, because the collateral fallout from that obviously affects us all.


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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 13:34
  #5169 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Oh come on, EM. This is Parapunter style mythology land. Nobody, that is in power, is talking about a wholesale scrapping of H&S legislation and workers rights. There was some news footage the other week of Chinese workers having to crawl down the streets on their hands and knees because they failed to met productivity targets - that's not going to happen here, even in the worst possible scenario ever.
Nobody may be talking directly about workers rights, but, it has already been intimated that after a suitable period (undefined ) EU legislation will be "reviewed " and it doesn't take an expert in law to interpret what this "review " will entail the degradation of. You may, well obviously have in fact, have missed Treeza's sop and olive branch to Corbyn which strangely enough involved ??..... workers rights post Brexit. Tory ideology is opposed to such rights, hence their enthusiasm for introducing legislation to negate or erode such.

" For some it is a positive benefit for some and a hindrance for others"
Certainly is a hindrance....for employers who have to conform to the law...... as it currently stands .

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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 13:44
  #5170 (permalink)  
 
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'On the eve of crashing out of the EU it is not the time for bye-elections'. Say the IG defectors. Yet it was the time they chose to leave the parties their constituents voted for.
.
'We should have a people's vote on the deal', Say the IG defectors. And yet they don't want their constituents to get a vote on whether to retain them now they have left the parties their voters chose.

How easily these people face both ways.

The question on the referendum paper was:

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The result was "leave the Eurpoean Union".

The Electoral Commission confirmed that its recommended question "was clear and straightforward for voters". There was never any question of what the deal would look like.

544 MPs voted for the referendum. Only 53 (mainly SNP) against. Soubry, Umunna, and as far as I know, all of the IG MPs voted for it. But now they do not wish to respect the answer to the question they put to this country. This alone tells me the country voted the right way at the referendum. The end.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 13:58
  #5171 (permalink)  
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That sums it up in an Easter Egg!
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 14:52
  #5172 (permalink)  
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PP, the only bit I take issue with is:

The country is irretrievably divided & will remain so for years to come.
Amongst the people I mix with there is one common theme - no one mentions Brexit.
​​​​​​
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 15:15
  #5173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oggers View Post
'On the eve of crashing out of the EU it is not the time for bye-elections'. Say the IG defectors. Yet it was the time they chose to leave the parties their constituents voted for.
.
'We should have a people's vote on the deal', Say the IG defectors. And yet they don't want their constituents to get a vote on whether to retain them now they have left the parties their voters chose.

How easily these people face both ways.

The question on the referendum paper was:



The result was "leave the Eurpoean Union".

The Electoral Commission confirmed that its recommended question "was clear and straightforward for voters". There was never any question of what the deal would look like.

544 MPs voted for the referendum. Only 53 (mainly SNP) against. Soubry, Umunna, and as far as I know, all of the IG MPs voted for it. But now they do not wish to respect the answer to the question they put to this country. This alone tells me the country voted the right way at the referendum. The end.
Incorrect.
The only conclusion you can draw from what you say is that the majority voted to leave.
I believe that we already knew that.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 15:27
  #5174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oggers View Post
The result was "leave the Eurpoean Union".

The Electoral Commission confirmed that its recommended question "was clear and straightforward for voters". There was never any question of what the deal would look like.
.
(My emphasis)

..and therein lies the problem and the reason the continuing strife in Westminster and elsewhere: what was the deal being voted on? Does the mandate that “leave means leave” translate into TM’s negotiated WA, a softer exit or a hard Brexit the day after the referendum result was announced?
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 15:44
  #5175 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post

(My emphasis)

..and therein lies the problem and the reason the continuing strife in Westminster and elsewhere: what was the deal being voted on? Does the mandate that “leave means leave” translate into TM’s negotiated WA, a softer exit or a hard Brexit the day after the referendum result was announced?

That's correct.

And it's because I don't think that anyone at the time of the referendum was told that negotiations for a subsequent FTA would not / could not start until the UK had actually left the EU.

I wonder whose decision to enforce that was ? And, more importantly, who agreed to it ?

Can't help thinking that having been given an open goal to shoot at, PM May and successive UK Ministers have all managed to have successive fresh air shots when it seemed easier to score than to miss.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 15:59
  #5176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oggers View Post
'On the eve of crashing out of the EU it is not the time for bye-elections'. Say the IG defectors. Yet it was the time they chose to leave the parties their constituents voted for.
.
'We should have a people's vote on the deal', Say the IG defectors. And yet they don't want their constituents to get a vote on whether to retain them now they have left the parties their voters chose.
I don't think you understand how elections work. Constituents don't vote for parties as you said. Never have. We vote for individuals. Those individuals are usually nominated by parties, but it's the individual who becomes an MP. Most of them (I have concerns about a few) have minds of their own to decide issues. If you don't like what your MP does you have an opportunity to vote them out at the next election, whenever that might be. And there is a mechanism to get them out much sooner if sufficient people wish it.

If MPs must only vote as instructed by their party there is no point in having them - just give the party leaders the relevant number of votes in Parliament and let them decide every issue.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 16:01
  #5177 (permalink)  
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In Oslo, a city in Sweden, there's an early twentieth century mansion that calls itself The Centre for Studies of the Holocaust and Religious Minorities. Before the old lady who lived there died in 1980, the palazzo was known as Villa Grande. While the lady's husband was alive, he died in 1945, the castle was called Gimlie. For those who don't know, Gimlie is where the good survivors of Ragnarok went after the battle was over. For those who don't know even that, a visit to a Swedish lending library would probably uncover a librarian who could tell you the story in English for the price of a cup of coffee.
Gimlie, the mansion was owned by an interesting if both unfortunate and very emphatic man called Vidkrun Quisling. The name will be familiar to some. I would suggest that the Independence Group consider incorporating a memorial to that man in their new party name, when they inevitably come to choose an appropriate symphonic handle for their timpani of beliefs. There is after all a strong precedent for doing this. Anna Soubry's constituents voted to leave the evil empire based in Germany, sorry, Brussels 54.6% to 45.4%, a pretty decent GO margin I think, so she follows very nicely in his footsteps of collaboration. Coincidentally, S for Soubry neatly follows Q for Quisling and so, while you await the arrival of R, I suggest that the Quisling Party is a most appropriate name for the Independence Group of Britain, at least as long as S continues to follow Q.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 16:04
  #5178 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
Can't help thinking that having been given an open goal to shoot at, PM May and successive UK Ministers have all managed to have successive fresh air shots when it seemed easier to score than to miss.
Dont forget 'call me Dave' said he would implement whatever the referendum decision was. When 'the man who had the facts' jumped ship he left the ship of State rudderless.

Government leadership was then 'contested' by a number of unprepared individuals most of these volunteers stepped one pace back tout de suite. Last man standing got the job and was never really prepared for such a role.

Has TM actually done anything other than Brexit. In fact she hasn't done that either.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 16:14
  #5179 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
In Oslo, a city in Sweden, there's an early twentieth century mansion that calls itself The Centre for Studies of the Holocaust and Religious Minorities. Before the old lady who lived there died in 1980, the palazzo was known as Villa Grande. While the lady's husband was alive, he died in 1945, the castle was called Gimlie. For those who don't know, Gimlie is where the good survivors of Ragnarok went after the battle was over. For those who don't know even that, a visit to a Swedish lending library would probably proceed a librarian who could tell you the story in English for the price of a cup of coffee.
Gimlie, the minion was owned by an interesting if both unfortunate and very emphatic man called Vidkrun Quisling. The name will be familiar to some. I would suggest that the Independence Group consider incorporating a memorial to that man in their new party name, when they inevitably come to choose an appropriate symphonic handle for their timpani of beliefs. There is after all a strong precedent for doing this. Anna Soubry's constituents voted to leave the evil empire based in Germany, sorry, Brussels 54.6% to 45.4%, a pretty decent GO margin I think, so she follows very nicely in his footsteps of collaboration. Coincidentally, S for Soubry neatly follows Q for Quisling and so, while you await the arrival of R, I suggest that the Quisling Party is a most appropriate name for the Independence Group of Britain, at least as long as S continues to follow Q.
Well that's a nice little fairy story. But quite apart from the fact that you couldn't even spell Vidkun Quisling's name correctly, it has no relevance whatever to Brexit.
Quisling cooperated with the Nazis to stay in power as Prime Minister. Anna Soubry is not in power and is now an MP in a new minority party with very little influence.

I don't think you'll get that one published. Try harder, and do improve your spelling.

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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 16:19
  #5180 (permalink)  
 
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Sallyann, Have you had a bad day?
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