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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 20th Feb 2019, 13:25
  #5041 (permalink)  
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With the arrival of the Independent Group as an entity for separation there is no reason, other than that of party politics and personal finance, for any member of old Labour to remain in it. The Labour Party has truly become a Marxist party and any who are not Marxists should leave right now and join one or other of the less evil and potentially exterminators political parties within the rotten hall of Westminster.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 13:37
  #5042 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
With the arrival of the Independent Group as an entity for separation there is no reason, other than that of party politics and personal finance, for any member of old Labour to remain in it. The Labour Party has truly become a Marxist party and any who are not Marxists should leave right now and join one or other of the less evil and potentially exterminators political parties within the rotten hall of Westminster.
Exactly the same applies to the Tory party, controlled by the wealthy crypto-fascist ERG.

(superfluous word removed)
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Last edited by Sallyann1234; 20th Feb 2019 at 15:21.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 14:35
  #5043 (permalink)  
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There’s really quite a limited, if any at all, evidence to show that the ERG is a crypto or secretive fascist sub group. There is however much direct evidence to prove conclusively that the present Labour Party is under Marxist control. So there isn’t really a paralllel there.
As for wealth and control, it would seem that the ERG may have some successful entrepreneurs among its members but it’s equally true that Labour is funded by unions and that such funding is based upon compulsory membership contributions.
Finally and on to the distinction between Marxism and Facism; you simply cannot say that one is of the right and the other of the left. Both creeds have their foundations in socialism, antipathetic I should have thought, to the average ERG member and both have caused more human misery than any other movements over the last one hundred years. In today’s world, there is no distinction between the two other than it seems acceptable to be a Marxist thinker in a Communist world whereas it is not acceptable to be a Fascist thinker in a free one, being neither and living in neither, I remain an eloquent protestor at what I deem to be the more totalitarian or my way species of ruler.
Jeremy Corbyn would put me in a camp and call it a kinder form of politics. Rees Mog would pat me on the head and call me a silly boy!
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 14:38
  #5044 (permalink)  
 
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Yes there are close parallels between the two extremities.
That's why I said the same applies
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 15:08
  #5045 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by under_exposed View Post
Every opinion poll before then suggests the sane course would win
i concede that Remain has it even if non-voters are accounted for or discarded.

Now I just learnt the following today:

MiL, then 91, drove to vote at about 10 AM. The car park was full of buses from the care homes; she drove home.

At 4 she went back and the care home tea rush was there. When she finally returned at 6 it was average busy. She was told it had been manic all day.

It seems those suggesting Leave voter numbers have been scythed are not wrong.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 15:22
  #5046 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
It was the cunning use of the word ‘also’ that had me foxed for a moment.
Thanks. I've no idea why that word was in there. Now removed.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 16:37
  #5047 (permalink)  
 
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In ordinary times ERG wouldn’t matter however we pigeon-hole them. The government would agree a sensible compromise with opposition and that would be that. Unfortunately the Corbyn wrecking-ball tactics of blocking every government move has handed them undreamed of leverage
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 16:47
  #5048 (permalink)  
 
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That's called opposition. Its what they're supposed to do but aren't.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 16:55
  #5049 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by virginblue View Post
The blue passport?
Yeah, OK, but as you know we could have had that anyway.

The one real benefit, the one I will acknowledge, the collapse in the car industry, leading to reduced pollution, reduced congestion, and health benefits from the extra walking and cycling for those who can no longer afford cars, is somehow never seen as a "benefit" by the #brexitters.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 17:05
  #5050 (permalink)  
 
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Opposition doesn’t just mean blocking and obstructing. In any case it’s you who should be most bothered as the practical effect is to enormously empower the ERG who you apparently loathe.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 17:18
  #5051 (permalink)  
 
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It's not the role of her Majesty's loyal opposition to act as the midwife for the government's legislative program. Since that program apparently contains your own wet dream, you're making dodgy judgements. Standard right wing PPRuNe really.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 17:37
  #5052 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Yeah, OK, but as you know we could have had that anyway.

The one real benefit, the one I will acknowledge, the collapse in the car industry, leading to reduced pollution, reduced congestion, and health benefits from the extra walking and cycling for those who can no longer afford cars, is somehow never seen as a "benefit" by the #brexitters.
With the best will in the world GTW, that's a bit tenuous to put it mildly.....pollution isn't suddenly going to reduce, albeit many poor sods living in heavy air pollution areas and ever increasing asthmatic numbers probably wish it would.....congestion ?......nope, the current volume of traffic negates that one ( might be a reduction in nasty foreign trucks of course ) walking ?......maybe...some of us already do and long since have been.....cycling ?.....not for the faint hearted on the UK's roads so unlikely....but, you missed out the alternative for those priced out of the car purchase option........public transport! . Happily, with the Tories reducing funding, which may have been useful in this respect, there won't be any public transport soon so all the peasantry will just have to jolly well walk ! .....huzzah for austerity !

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Old 20th Feb 2019, 18:09
  #5053 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
With the best will in the world GTW, that's a bit tenuous to put it mildly.....pollution isn't suddenly going to reduce, albeit many poor sods living in heavy air pollution areas and ever increasing asthmatic numbers probably wish it would.....congestion ?......nope, the current volume of traffic negates that one ( might be a reduction in nasty foreign trucks of course ) walking ?......maybe...some of us already do and long since have been.....cycling ?.....not for the faint hearted on the UK's roads so unlikely....but, you missed out the alternative for those priced out of the car purchase option........public transport! . Happily, with the Tories reducing funding, which may have been useful in this respect, there won't be any public transport soon so all the peasantry will just have to jolly well walk ! .....huzzah for austerity !
Excellent - you two are now getting to the real heart of the seismic change that (I hope) is taking place, one that people like PP and Sally point blank refuse to accept, or even acknowledge.....

The UK is already rich beyond our wildest dreams - we simply dont need additional GDP growth or powerhouses or further unsustainable growth. All those things do is make the rich richer, increase the wealth gap, make the country even more overcrowded, put massive strain on public services and infrastructure and help to destroy the environment we live in.

It's this broken economic model that I and (I believe) many others kicked back against when we voted Leave in June 2016. It's time for a change in approach at the top, some fresh thinking and a new, more sustainable approach going forwards.

Whether it will happen or not I cant be sure, but I can atleast say I tried to do my bit.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 19:06
  #5054 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Even worse, I heard a reference the other day to Blair being involved as well. Deliberately being kept low key I expect as any public attempt to resurrect him in any context will just kill off whatever cause he is promoting.

A really distasteful bunch, these arch remainers..
i dont think that Blair's involvement would have a bad effect. Compared to the political pygmies currently running the show he looks supremely competent. Grayling anybody? I will certainly join the party just as soon as it is formed, as will a friend of mine who served from 1997 until 2010.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 19:11
  #5055 (permalink)  
 
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And me. Sick to death of the lies, the extremism, the false narratives, the willingness to gamble with the country - most of all, the enabling of loonies on both sides. Not so naive to think these fools created them but they're certainly emboldened.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 19:24
  #5056 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
And me. Sick to death of the lies, the extremism, the false narratives, the willingness to gamble with the country - most of all, the enabling of loonies on both sides. Not so naive to think these fools created them but they're certainly emboldened.
Only flaw in that plan is these Independent MPs really should be subjecting themselves to the rigour of a democratic vote. Seems especially pertinent given they are all such big advocates of democracy and second votes when circumstances change, etc...
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 19:28
  #5057 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post


i dont think that Blair's involvement would have a bad effect. Compared to the political pygmies currently running the show he looks supremely competent. Grayling anybody? I will certainly join the party just as soon as it is formed, as will a friend of mine who served from 1997 until 2010.
I'd say you're in a (fairly small) minority there EM. Blair is pretty toxic still. Many "traditional" Labour voters see him as a fraud who sold out to big business. To most of the rest of the country he's just a liar and war criminal.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 19:35
  #5058 (permalink)  
 
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Well, luckily your opinion is a hill of beans on that score, as is mine. There's no requirement and that's all that matters. Try the real world once in a while, it's very real indeed.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 20:01
  #5059 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Excellent - you two are now getting to the real heart of the seismic change that (I hope) is taking place, one that people like PP and Sally point blank refuse to accept, or even acknowledge.....

The UK is already rich beyond our wildest dreams - we simply dont need additional GDP growth or powerhouses or further unsustainable growth. All those things do is make the rich richer, increase the wealth gap, make the country even more overcrowded, put massive strain on public services and infrastructure and help to destroy the environment we live in.

It's this broken economic model that I and (I believe) many others kicked back against when we voted Leave in June 2016. It's time for a change in approach at the top, some fresh thinking and a new, more sustainable approach going forwards.

Whether it will happen or not I cant be sure, but I can atleast say I tried to do my bit.
The country is NOT rich beyond our wildest dreams, we DO need additional growth in GDP, and growth in GDP does not make the country overcrowded. If you think that your statements really are true then you are, and I say this with all respect, a complete and utter fool.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 20:05
  #5060 (permalink)  
 
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I just have a feeling that wherever you held a poll, thePLP, the electorate as a whole Blair would be streets ahead of a Corbyn. Maybe the Labour membership might be different, Hatton, McCluskey et al.
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