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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 17th Feb 2019, 14:02
  #4801 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Looking out the window it is clear that the weather isn't an excuse today. So when I've finished this coffee I can't really skive off getting out there and delivering some more anti-#brexit leaflets. (Not that they do an awful lot round here - preaching to the converted.)
best save your breath to cool your porridge, then, Gertie.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 14:43
  #4802 (permalink)  
 
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GOULI,

I have no idea what the reasons are for his leaving. Reading all the articles in the Times, he seems to be a genius with making profits out of previous companies losses.

But the following stood out.

The Alchemists: The Ineos Story, he described himself, Currie and Reece as “deeply pro-British”. Yet they have clashed with the government over tax before: in 2010, after Gordon Brown refused to help Ineos by deferring a £350m VAT bill for six months, Ratcliffe moved the headquarters to Switzerland for six years — a move that cost the Treasury hundreds of millions of pounds

People might not like these capitalists much. They might not like them due to their wealth. But he employs 18500, not all in the UK. Where will the UK be without people like him paying millions in taxes? Who is going to replace that money? Where will the jobs come from?
As an aside, he grew up in a council house just outside Manchester.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 14:56
  #4803 (permalink)  
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The only reasons not to like them is either because you’re envious of them or you want to rob them of their gotten wealth to redistribute as you might see fit and to whom.
There is no moral high ground to be made by those who don’t like the capitalists because, in parodying the sins of envy and theft those who don’t like the capitalists are no less guilty than the worst of the capitalists themselves.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 15:30
  #4804 (permalink)  
 
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I always thought tax evasion and getting a gong from HM were a non-starter?
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 15:37
  #4805 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
GOULI,

I have no idea what the reasons are for his leaving. Reading all the articles in the Times, he seems to be a genius with making profits out of previous companies losses.

But the following stood out.

The Alchemists: The Ineos Story, he described himself, Currie and Reece as “deeply pro-British”. Yet they have clashed with the government over tax before: in 2010, after Gordon Brown refused to help Ineos by deferring a £350m VAT bill for six months, Ratcliffe moved the headquarters to Switzerland for six years — a move that cost the Treasury hundreds of millions of pounds

People might not like these capitalists much. They might not like them due to their wealth. But he employs 18500, not all in the UK. Where will the UK be without people like him paying millions in taxes? Who is going to replace that money? Where will the jobs come from?
As an aside, he grew up in a council house just outside Manchester.
For a genius at making money, in your view, the little matter of £350m of unpaid VAT is, presumably, acceptable.

And he didn't grow up in a council house near Manchester, Failsworth to be precise, he lived there until he was ten, after which the family emigrated to Yorkshire, Hull in fact, so this "rags to riches " inference isn't entirely accurate...but accurate enough to impress on JB.
That, and he's hardly unique in being another "great British patriot "...another well worn and hackneyed expression, to rapidly disappear from the UK at the first opportunity.

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Old 17th Feb 2019, 15:45
  #4806 (permalink)  
 
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There are a vanishingly small number of these rags to riches people, they are the lottery winners of the business world, right place, right time. Then there are those like myself, poorish working class background who did ok in business and end up comfortable. Then there are the failures, they bump along the bottom, often with crackpot or borderline illegal get rich schemes that never seem to pan out. Normally these people are not too bright, the ones I know of like this are all Tories.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 15:51
  #4807 (permalink)  
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GTW, just curious.

What is the rationale behind an anti-Brexit leaflet? 3 years too late surely?

What is the point of giving out leaflets to those you believe are converted?

What does the leaflet contain that the appropriate media, seen by your target audience, does not?

Put it another way, isn't it all a bit pointless?
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 15:56
  #4808 (permalink)  
 
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Entirely, but it's the way politics works. Why? Probably because it always has done. One old fella I knew in the Labour Party used to knock on doors and get a mouthful of expletives. He would walk back down the path saying " I'll put them down as doubtful."
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 16:19
  #4809 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
GTW, just curious.

What is the rationale behind an anti-Brexit leaflet? 3 years too late surely?

What is the point of giving out leaflets to those you believe are converted?

What does the leaflet contain that the appropriate media, seen by your target audience, does not?

Put it another way, isn't it all a bit pointless?
Well, not quite, there are elections in May, and we want to make sure that all our remain-supporting residents know how complicit Labour is in #brexit, don't we
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 16:20
  #4810 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
For a genius at making money, in your view, the little matter of £350m of unpaid VAT is, presumably, acceptable.

And he didn't grow up in a council house near Manchester, Failsworth to be precise, he lived there until he was ten, after which the family emigrated to Yorkshire, Hull in fact, so this "rags to riches " inference isn't entirely accurate...but accurate enough to impress on JB.
That, and he's hardly unique in being another "great British patriot "...another well worn and hackneyed expression, to rapidly disappear from the UK at the first opportunity.
Point One, I made no comments on whether I found his tax bill acceptable.
Point 2, At what point is living there till aged 9/10 not growing up?
Point 3, Rag to riches? Another saying that I didn't even mention.

If you are going to reply to comments, try not to twist them to make your smug self seem superior.
I clearly stated that the quote was from the Sunday Times re his tax liabilities.
You, from your comments, seem to hate anyone who makes money from taking risks and working hard. That is your business. I was asking a question, that without people such as him, who is going to replace the tax? Will you voluntarily pay more? Or do you just sit there criticizing everybody else?

I won't be replying to you again. I agree with some of your former colleagues though....
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 16:23
  #4811 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
One old fella I knew in the Labour Party used to knock on doors and get a mouthful of expletives. He would walk back down the path saying " I'll put them down as doubtful."
That's really unhelpful, and if his party techies knew he was doing it they'd delete his returns from the database, as being so inaccurate that they were of negative value.

Why would you knock on a door where you're going to get "a mouthful of expletives" anyway? - complete waste of time. Bad data, and bad targeting.

Unless, of course, this guy was so useless that he was deliberately sent to knock on doors where he couldn't do any actual harm.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 16:24
  #4812 (permalink)  
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GTW, ah, thank you. I expect I will be working then but had forgotten about the elections.

Now, let's see, Brexit party, no. Labour party pro Brexit, no. Tory party pro something, no. Vince Cable, no?

Ah, I know, none of the above,😁
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 16:36
  #4813 (permalink)  
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GTW, knocking on doors must be interesting. I presume if there is an opposition poster on display that you don't bother? Or do you on the grounds that they may not all vote the same way?I

If they are displaying a friendly poster do you bother or is it you that provides the poster?

Now one thing i have seen in the USA is placard bearing supporters on polling day standing at a road junction or roundabout advertising their candidate. Often you will have opposing parties represented at the same junction and all quite amicably. Is that not permitted in UK?
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 16:57
  #4814 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
GTW, knocking on doors must be interesting. I presume if there is an opposition poster on display that you don't bother? Or do you on the grounds that they may not all vote the same way?I
Depends, particularly in HMOs where different residents have no connection with each other apart from renting bedsits in the same house. The software tries to flag HMOs, using an algorithm such as "three different surnames at the same address", but that's not 100% accurate, eg where the parents are called Mr Smith and Ms Bloggs and the kids are called Smith-Bloggs.

Even when its a married couple it might be worth knocking. Once Upon A Time the front room window belonging to our Tory candidate had two posters up - one Tory one for him, and one LibDem one for me, because his wife wasn't a Tory.

If I'm knocking up on polling day I skip houses with opposition posters, guessing that inaccurate data is more likely than one of these scenarios, and you really don't want to be wasting time on polling day. But not everybody does the same.
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
If they are displaying a friendly poster do you bother or is it you that provides the poster?
Most of the posters are there because you've persuaded someone to take them as part of the conversation after knocking on their door. You knock anyway, if they're on your list, because what the canvasser doesn't necessarily know is whether the person on your list is the one who put the poster up. And because the most value comes from talking to your supporters - being talked to makes an enormous difference to whether, on the day, someone can actually be arsed to go out and vote.
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Now one thing i have seen in the USA is placard bearing supporters on polling day standing at a road junction or roundabout advertising their candidate. Often you will have opposing parties represented at the same junction and all quite amicably. Is that not permitted in UK?
That one depends on where you live. In Birmingham every lamp post on some main roads has three posters, one for each party. In other places it's not allowed. You don't have actual human beings doing this, they're spending polling day knocking on doors, nobody has any people to spare for any other function.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 17:04
  #4815 (permalink)  
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What was that about getting a gong and tax evasion being a non starter? They may not exactly evade tax although they certainly live and obtain their security from the taxes of others and Recently they’ve been squabbles over tiaras let alone gongs, bongs and Lord High Admirals!
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 17:11
  #4816 (permalink)  
 
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Tom was a lovely chap, born in 1923 he was a nurse all his working life. He could never quite believe that anybody wouldn't vote for him. He died a couple of years back at 94. He loved the NHS.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 17:54
  #4817 (permalink)  
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GTW, ty. I still remember with a grin the one and only time we had a door knocker and never a phone call. I was asked if I was going to vote.

I replied absolutely honestly, No.

Ah ha, a potential vote, why not?

Already voted. Puzzled look, how? Then the penny dropped. How did I vote?

​​​Foxtrot Oscar (only more politely)

Would you have put that down as yes or no given the area?
​​​​​
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 18:08
  #4818 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


Point One, I made no comments on whether I found his tax bill acceptable.
Point 2, At what point is living there till aged 9/10 not growing up?
Point 3, Rag to riches? Another saying that I didn't even mention.

If you are going to reply to comments, try not to twist them to make your smug self seem superior.
I clearly stated that the quote was from the Sunday Times re his tax liabilities.
You, from your comments, seem to hate anyone who makes money from taking risks and working hard. That is your business. I was asking a question, that without people such as him, who is going to replace the tax? Will you voluntarily pay more? Or do you just sit there criticizing everybody else?

I won't be replying to you again. I agree with some of your former colleagues though....
You made the point about him being successful and a genius at making money....if you make money, it's not unrealistic to expect to pay tax, in one form or another, hence £350m in unpaid VAT is hardly a trivial amount. so why did he expect to be bailed out with a extension in time to pay.

He lived in Failsworth for part of his childhood, not all of it. There's a few years after moving when he was also growing up that are equally relevant.

Lets see....... "lived in a council house " " becomes a multi millionaire "..now what possible connection could there be to mentioning his origins and "rags to riches ".

I am far from averse to people making money, providing they pay their taxes and reward those who are employed in contributing to their wealth. I have no time for those professing their "patriotism " in one breath, whilst quietly removing their assets to tax havens outside the UK and subsequently leaving the UK in order to maintain their wealth courtesy of such beneficial locations. I don't know if he has any off shore accounts of course, but, it would amazing to learn otherwise.

As I've been contributing to UK tax all my working life, why should I now pay more when I'm retired and still paying tax. The working population of the UK will continue to pay tax, albeit there may be a shortfall due to the imminent lack of immigrants coming to the UK.....bewildering though this may be, they also pay tax.

I have no idea as to whom "my former colleagues " as you refer to them are, but, if you are referring to those who wasted their entire working lives in the military, whom, thankfully, I don't know personally, then you join the well established demographic who don't take kindly to any form of criticism or having your views questioned because your working and daily lives are generally ordered and structured due to their rank.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 19:05
  #4819 (permalink)  
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Multinational company operating in over 20 countries. Only moved their headquarters to the UK in 2016 and now moving it out again. Not sure where the UK interest or investment in a wholly privately grown and owned company comes from, or why you think the UK taxman has some god given right to their money?

I have no time for those professing their "patriotism " in one breath, whilst quietly removing their assets to tax havens outside the UK and subsequently leaving the UK in order to maintain their wealth courtesy of such beneficial locations.
”Ineos said it had 400 companies in 35 jurisdictions that regularly paid dividends within the group. “These dividends are used to support the group’s funding requirements,” it said. “We currently have more than 10 major projects, including both acquisitions and new builds, worth over $1bn each.”......

Ratcliffe, Currie and Reece brought Ineos back from its Swiss tax exile in 2016, becoming UK residents again and opening a headquarters opposite Harrods in London. They have made it a player in the US shale gas boom, bought assets in the North Sea, announced plans to build a new offroad 4x4 like the Defender.......

Having funded all their deals over the years with debt, the trio own 100% of Ineos, with Currie and Reece holding 20% each. It has grown into a sprawling company with turnover of £45bn and a total of 18,500 employees across 181 sites in 22 countries......
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 19:07
  #4820 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Already voted. Puzzled look, how? Then the penny dropped.
I would have asked a different question in the first place: "have you sent off your postal vote yet?".

Candidates' agents do get told who has and hasn't applied for a postal vote, if they take the trouble to ask, so not knowing is pure (time-wasting) incompetence.

Oh, and once the postal ballots have been sent out, a notice on your door saying "We have already voted" would stop me knocking on the door. Either it's true, so there's no point, or it's a lie, so there's no point - either way I save myself some wasted tens of seconds.
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