Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 10th Feb 2019, 18:30
  #4381 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 43
Fair enough all round. Wiggly, absolutely. EEA means Single Market membership (but not Customs Union) which means freedom of movement. So yes, TM’s red lines meant it was a non-starter. There never seemed to be a great deal of consultation over that. Tescoapp, in 2016 the result was Leave but there was never any debate over what it should entail. The debate should have been had in 2016, not now. If we had decided then that leaving with no deal was a viable option then preparation should have started then, not the half-arsed shambles we have now. If we had done that, the EU would have seen we were serious about it as a destination, and it would have given us a stronger hand at the negotiation table. As it is, we simply risk dropping out by accident, totally unprepared.

Last point: I am pretty sure that EEA members are subject to the EFTA court, not the ECJ.



zoigberg is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 18:58
  #4382 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 55
Posts: 0
The question was stay in or leave. The result was leave. The last two years has just been fannying about trying to keep the loosers from doing anything to screw it up while the clock counts down. To be fair what they have done is just make a default exit more likely.

​​​​One of the relatively few facts is that the relationship between the UK and the EU is can fundementally changed and there is nothing that can change that. So leave has won in or out.
tescoapp is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:02
  #4383 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 73
Posts: 798
It is easy to say the UK is making a pig's ear of it but, despite being generally contemptuous of Mrs May and her ilk, I think it fair to say that as negotiations need 2 parties to state and then argue their side, then the EU must bear some blame. They seem to me as being dogmatic in the extreme. They have stated their argument and refused to budge. Shades of de Gaulle! So I would say it is 6 and 2 threes.
As for nobody else having the nerve to try it, weren't Denmark, Ireland, Netherlands, Greece and Italy all, at one time were on the verge of quitting. I seem to remember in the case of Netherlands, Denmark & Ireland it was related to the Lisbon Treaty. In most, if not all, of those cases politicians far more deft than ours conned the populations in those countries into saying "Oh well, never mind then".
Re the earlier arguments re the idea of UK having focussed on trade deals other than with the EU (at least, that was what I read Tescoapp's post as), I remember at the very beginning of this whole farce, the EU laid down the law that forbade the UK from doing trade deals with anyone outside the EU as EU rules mean that only the EU can do such trade deals. I remember thinking at the time that this was ridiculous; why could the UK not make arrangements with whomever they liked, with the proviso that "This arrangement comes into force at 00:01 GMT March 30th"?
I am sure there are sensible voices in the EU which may be thinking the UK may have some points and perhaps we should compromise a little. But those voices are not begin heard, leaving the impression that the EU is playing a bit like the playground bully. "It is my ball and if I say you can't kick it, then either accept my rules or sod off".
And for those stupid arguments about technology not being in place to alleviate border issues, well my understanding is that 90% of cross border goods clearances are done via technological means today. The exceptions being the small businesses etc. The next time the EU insist it is not possible because the technology has not yet been invented, someone should remind them of things such as railways. They had not yet been invented when the cries of you'll go insane riding such a contraption" or "at speeds above 30 mph you will be sucked out of the carriage to your death" were the then current vogue.
If only properly certified grown ups ran the affairs of State (both here and in the EU)!
KelvinD is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:24
  #4384 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,222
So Mrs May is pictured going to church today-is it because shes a parsons daughter or she is worried about Donald Tusks predictions

An odd state of affairs though , she who personally voted to stay , representing a constituency that voted to stay seems to think that the only thing that matters is leaving on a aprticular day whatever the consequences.

Of course she represents maidenhead a wealthy area and of course almost all wealthy areas voted remain or were 50:50 which does give you the impression that the people who run the country and its economy day to day are going to carry on sabotaging things until we rejoin .
Personally i think we should have a national analysis of social media and media readership to determine who voted leave so that they and only they have to go to the back of the immigration queue and are the first people to lose their jobs when their local multinationals close down or downsize
Talk about not taking responsibility for ones actions.

pax britanica is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:31
  #4385 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,222
And Mr or Mrs Tesco app , when your food bill goes up in April and you face all sorts of inconveniences possibly losign your job all in the name of a ludicrous hundred years out of date view of the world and cry but its democracy the people have spoken that someone very famous said You can;t eat democracy!

And the relationship between Britain and continental Europe, we will still be in Europe whatever happens of course the pro Eu vote will just go on getting stronger because the young want it and when all the Mail reading old fools are dead or senile they will rejoin and dance on your grave. Actually they will probably do something else for ******* up their lives for ten years and exacerbating the inevitable division between elderly haves and younger have much less factions
pax britanica is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:33
  #4386 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 68
Posts: 461
Just a reminder of where this all started from:




And a view from the EU:

Exrigger is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:53
  #4387 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,278
2unlimited is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:24
  #4388 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,859
KelvinD

I remember at the very beginning of this whole farce, the EU laid down the law that forbade the UK from doing trade deals with anyone outside the EU as EU rules mean that only the EU can do such trade deals.
You haven’t quite remembered it correctly.

The fact that a member, any member, of the E.U. couldn’t go off and negotiate significant ad hoc bespoke trade agreements between just itself and countries outside the E.U., whilst remaining, or with the potential to remain in the bloc (e.g. Revoke A50) was always the rule, for what I would have thought would been obvious reasons. It wasn’t a brand new rule “laid down” at the beginning of this farce by the nasty E.U. simply to stymie the U.K. because it had decided to leave.

That was one of the “known knowns” in all this and I’m sure the politicians knew about it, pity it didn’t make the side of a bus.

As for your confidence for technological solutions for customs....

And for those stupid arguments about technology not being in place to alleviate border issues, well my understanding is that 90% of cross border goods clearances are done via technological means today. etc
...you may find this of interest:

https://www.voanews.com/a/brexit-les...n/4780407.html








Last edited by wiggy; 10th Feb 2019 at 20:36.
wiggy is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:32
  #4389 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
The question was stay in or leave. The result was leave. The last two years has just been fannying about trying to keep the loosers from doing anything to screw it up while the clock counts down. To be fair what they have done is just make a default exit more likely.
Imagine believing this. Imagine believing you are engaged with current affairs on a daily basis, following the twists & turns of this farce farce from the bold pronouncements of Fox & co, to the Chequers deal to the consistent unwavering EU stance & reaching the conclusion that the risk in all this is loosers (sic) derailing an otherwise perfectly executed process.
Parapunter is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:16
  #4390 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 73
Posts: 798
wiggy: I actually did remember correctly but I was guilty of not being clear in what I was trying to say. I suspect the phrase about the EU laying down the law may have been clearer if I had said something along the lines of the EU informing the UK they were to rigidly enforce the law. I suppose I was trying to say that naturally, the UK knew the rules and complied with them. However, I thought the EU ruling out preparatory talks/arrangements between the UK and elsewhere was short sighted and somewhat ruthlessly authoritarian.
Thanks for the link re automated border customs operations. It was significant that the items they have most issues with are things that have nothing at all to do with customs but rather local, immediately solvable issues such as wi-fi links between cameras, computers etc. Norway is not a poor country and I am sure the installation of a few miles of fibre would kill that "problem". "Snow blocking the cameras"! Really? So they have snow in Norway then? 30 odd years ago I was installing CCTV cameras for police forces here and there and they had these windscreen wiper things to keep the lenses clear. And should not be sufficient, then electrically heating the lens housing works a treat. So, absence of technology is not a valid reason to avoid its use. In fact, in one of the WTO's articles they virtually ban or perhaps seriously discourage) the introduction of paper based systems at borders. I was reading this on the WTO web site a couple of weeks back but can't remember which Article it was contained in. My guess of ca 90% of trade being dealt with electronically came from an interview I listened to on Radio 4 recently. I don't remember the name of the interviewee but he was someone heavily involved in such stuff and was not a government hack.
Lastly, that news item implies the border between Ireland and Ulster was the cause of 3,700 lives being lost. Absolute tosh!
KelvinD is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:48
  #4391 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 355
Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
It is easy to say the UK is making a pig's ear of it but, despite being generally contemptuous of Mrs May and her ilk, I think it fair to say that as negotiations need 2 parties to state and then argue their side, then the EU must bear some blame. They seem to me as being dogmatic in the extreme. They have stated their argument and refused to budge. Shades of de Gaulle! So I would say it is 6 and 2 threes.
Of course they refused to budge. The EU is bound by the four freedoms which are the founding principles of the Union. Even if they wanted to budge, they could not do so without getting all 28 (as it was then) members to agree significant changes to those principles. And that was never going to happen.

How many times must it be said that Brexit is NOT a divorce. We are, sadly, simply leaving the EU. We may be significantly changed, but the only changes to the EU are its size and income. It continues in the same way.

Edit: Written before I saw your last post.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:23
  #4392 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,433
Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
And Mr or Mrs Tesco app , when your food bill goes up in April and you face all sorts of inconveniences possibly losign your job all in the name of a ludicrous hundred years out of date view of the world and cry but its democracy the people have spoken that someone very famous said You can;t eat democracy!
Mr Tesco app will say any, and quite possibly all, of

(1) None of that stuff actually happened, look, I've got my eyes shut and my fingers in my ears and I'm singing la-la-la, so that proves it.
(2) OK, so it did happen, but it was nothing to do with #brexit, and without #brexit it would have happened worse.
(3) OK, so it did happen, and it was to do with #brexit, but it was all the fault of the remainers for not doing #brexit properly.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2019, 07:08
  #4393 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 18
Trade deals........

Readers of "Prvate Eye " will have noted an interesting piece in the "Brussels Sprouts " column, featuring this JB favourite......the difference being, sadly for some on here, this piece is factual.

Obviously, I would recommend purchasing this excellent source of information and the front cover of the current edition is a classic, for the full details, but here's a slightly abridged synopsis.......... ( more than 3 dots please note )

Liam, proclaimed there would be " 40 trade deals ready one second after midnight, 29th March " Some of these deals were already in place, but Liam has not been able to persuade said countries to roll over their EU deals, so the UK could trade on WTO terms once we've flounced out of the door.

Apparently, we've reached agreements , in principle, with Australia, N.Z, Switzerland and Israel......that's it. and non of them seem to be in a hurry to proceed further. That, and the EU deals will cease to apply to the UK irrespective of whether Treeza bribes her agreement through the Commons.

That's it in a nutshell.....so we await those convinced the world will flock to our shores.... and their explanation as to, .and why. strangely, the world is justifiably reticent to do so.
Krystal n chips is online now  
Old 11th Feb 2019, 07:34
  #4394 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,962
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Trade deals........

Readers of "Prvate Eye " will have noted an interesting piece in the "Brussels Sprouts " column, featuring this JB favourite......the difference being, sadly for some on here, this piece is factual.

Obviously, I would recommend purchasing this excellent source of information and the front cover of the current edition is a classic, for the full details, but here's a slightly abridged synopsis.......... ( more than 3 dots please note )

Liam, proclaimed there would be " 40 trade deals ready one second after midnight, 29th March " Some of these deals were already in place, but Liam has not been able to persuade said countries to roll over their EU deals, so the UK could trade on WTO terms once we've flounced out of the door.

Apparently, we've reached agreements , in principle, with Australia, N.Z, Switzerland and Israel......that's it. and non of them seem to be in a hurry to proceed further. That, and the EU deals will cease to apply to the UK irrespective of whether Treeza bribes her agreement through the Commons.

That's it in a nutshell.....so we await those convinced the world will flock to our shores.... and their explanation as to, .and why. strangely, the world is justifiably reticent to do so.
The problem with making trade deals with many of the emerging economies, and the parts of the world traditionally painted pink on the globe is that from their perspective there will be a quid pro quo; in return for trade nations like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria etc will want something tantamount to "free movement of people" as part of the deal. This will cause big problems with the membership of the Tory party, and more importantly with big chunks of the population who, when they talk of immigration, are more bothered about the colour of someone's skin, than where they come from. These attitudes are especially prevalent in (coincidentally Brexit voting) areas of the East Midlands, such as North Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire and the like. Much as they dislike European migrants, they'll have an even greater aversion to those from the subcontinent, Africa and the like. 1950s and 60s attitudes to race are readily heard on the streets of towns such as Mansfield, Sutton in Ashfield and the like. Such attitudes are disgraceful, and unacceptable in the 21st century, but they still exist.
ATNotts is online now  
Old 11th Feb 2019, 07:46
  #4395 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 55
Posts: 0
As stated previously it is illegal for the UK to sign any trade deals before the exit. Some say its illegal to even discuss trade deals with other countries until exit.

Also the current deals with the EU may be up for renegotiation once UK import market is gone.

No country who is currently in a deal with the EU will want to comment or do anything until the UK is out. They know fine there is going to be a heap of politics to be done as soon as the UK is out. Because the fundamental balance of all the current deals with have significantly changed.

We may be significantly changed, but the only changes to the EU are its size and income. It continues in the same way.
Without the UK present with its population voting lump then federalisation will accelerate, trade deals I have commented on above. There will be a whole raft of things change. Some of which some of the rest of the members will say thank goodness for them being gone. Other stuff will be utter tossers……

The EU will go further and further away from what's acceptable to the UK population. And even if it doesn't I can't see them letting the UK back in for 50 odd years if they still exist.
tescoapp is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2019, 07:48
  #4396 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,962
Originally Posted by 2unlimited View Post
Just watched that through, brilliant!! Proof if proof were needed that the Germans do have a sense of humour. Actually it wasn't so much a piece of amusing satire, more a pretty accurate illustrations of where we re now, how we've got here, and how mind numbingly stupid and uninformed some of the vox pops that we see on TV are.

Thank you very much for posting it.
ATNotts is online now  
Old 11th Feb 2019, 07:49
  #4397 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 77
Posts: 16,725
GTW, two simple questions.

What will cause the price of Moroccan raspberries, Chillean blueberries, Peruvian asparagus, and Kenyan beans to cost more?

Will Polish and Spanish fruiterers allow their imports to our market to become uncompetitive?

​​​​​​
Pontius Navigator is online now  
Old 11th Feb 2019, 08:10
  #4398 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 77
Posts: 16,725
Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
. . . possibly losign your job all in the name of a ludicrous hundred years out of date view . . .
all the Mail reading old fools are dead or senile they will rejoin and dance on your grave. Actually they will probably do something else for ******* up
I have abridged your rant for rant it is. You seem to attribute the problems to a particular group readers of a particular newspaper. Three of my children/husbands do not fit your profile though I allow my mother in law does.

It would seem a further exponent of Project Fear.

Now on job losses, I allow you may have a case as the Germans are waking up to this with potentially 15,000 (not 30,000) job losses in their motor industry.
Pontius Navigator is online now  
Old 11th Feb 2019, 08:20
  #4399 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,092
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Just watched that through, brilliant!! Proof if proof were needed that the Germans do have a sense of humour. Actually it wasn't so much a piece of amusing satire, more a pretty accurate illustrations of where we re now, how we've got here, and how mind numbingly stupid and uninformed some of the vox pops that we see on TV are.

Thank you very much for posting it.
There is more on Brexit by that funny German TV show available, some of it with subtitles. My two favourites: Brits stockpiling Viagra to prepare for a hard brexit and the trouble with replacing the 3000 imported semen specimen from Denmark with, err, homegrown produce.


Most recent one:
Before the referendum:
virginblue is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2019, 08:33
  #4400 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,092
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Now on job losses, I allow you may have a case as the Germans are waking up to this with potentially 15,000 (not 30,000) job losses in their motor industry.
That would be 1,8 per cent of all employees in that industry. Not too bad given the alleged dependency of the German industry from Brits buying German cars.

As has been mentioned here before, Germany currently enjoys the lowest unemployment rate in the past 30 years and many companies are having difficulties to hire staff, particularly skilled workers. Currently there are 800.000 vacancies on the German job market (note: despite all those EU migrants and refugees...), so I am not sure that 15.000 jobs in the motor industry will bring down Germany.
virginblue is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.