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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:05
  #4381 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Tescoapp
as a relative newcomer to this forum I am curious...at the beginning of the Brexit process would you have settled for EEA membership as a destination? Many leavers that I came across were concerned with the EUs federalist ambitions. ‘Why didn’t it just stay as a trading agreement?’ is a question often asked.’that would have been fine’. It seems that the EEA option has been drowned out with all the noise over the last 2 years. I know it won’t happen now, I am just curious as to your position, and whether it has changed.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:42
  #4382 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect the EEA option was off the table once TM came up with her “red lines” (EEA membership brings Freedom of Movement back into the equation)....
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:09
  #4383 (permalink)  
 
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The common market was good, an umbrella of standards was more than sensible. After that it went down hill rapidly.

As said above EEA it brings other conditions which are extremely suspect.

Personally I don't want the EU to fail but I can't see it surviving in its current form. They need to split it into 3-4 economic groups. But that would defeat the purpose for 3-4 members.

EEA comes with ECJ oversight so unacceptable.

Last edited by tescoapp; 10th Feb 2019 at 17:19.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:20
  #4384 (permalink)  
 
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"What we are witnessing is, at least, the beginning of the considerable foreshortening of EU power and control, if not the beginning of the death throes of the EU and its inevitable collapse" - perhaps seen upside down from Australia

I can assure you that is there is a single grain of light in this awful business it is that NO-ONE in Europe will go down the same route as the Brits having seen what an unalterable shambles you've made of leaving and what horrible unknowns you still face...........................

As an Italian colleague said to me " God - if the British can make such a pigs ear of it imagine what it would be like if us or the Greeks tried it..."
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:29
  #4385 (permalink)  
 
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There are a few that might go for it depending how quickly they change art50.

Currently art 50 is set up for a coup not a disorganised departure never mind organised.

To be honest most of the other member states wouldn't cause an issue it's only because of the UK's payment into budget and it's huge import market which is causing issues. If it was one of the drain members who export more than they import it would just be see ya.

Huge % of the budget and they have been selling the UK import market for years for trade deals. Cash gone and a load of trade partners potentially want to renegotiate the trade deals.

They be a bit screwed.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:32
  #4386 (permalink)  
 
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Only the Greeks did try it. Tsipras held a referendum, the people decisively rejected the EU's rescue package, it was made clear by Brussels the outcome would be expulsion. Tsipras explained this to the people, cancelled the referendum, went to the people & was re-elected.

That's mature democracy. Here, we have gone down a rabbit hole of infantile partisanship based on half truths & outright lies which will set us back for a generation.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 17:36
  #4387 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent question. My principal frustration has been the absence of informed debate on exactly this point. Far too many simply want to re-argue 2016 over and over rather than plot a sensible compromise course. With the result that an absolute no-deal which almost nobody wants is now a distinct possibility.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 18:06
  #4388 (permalink)  
 
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It got past that in 2016. The debate stopped and the referendum result is playing out.

I know some think it's still open and they can discuss things until the cow's come home. But they have been out manoeuvred and even if they think they have won if it doesn't go through the damage has been done so it will never go back to the way it was. Bitter and twisted divorce will be the outcome now what ever happens. Just we have a joker just now that we can get out of paying alimony.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 18:30
  #4389 (permalink)  
 
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Fair enough all round. Wiggly, absolutely. EEA means Single Market membership (but not Customs Union) which means freedom of movement. So yes, TM’s red lines meant it was a non-starter. There never seemed to be a great deal of consultation over that. Tescoapp, in 2016 the result was Leave but there was never any debate over what it should entail. The debate should have been had in 2016, not now. If we had decided then that leaving with no deal was a viable option then preparation should have started then, not the half-arsed shambles we have now. If we had done that, the EU would have seen we were serious about it as a destination, and it would have given us a stronger hand at the negotiation table. As it is, we simply risk dropping out by accident, totally unprepared.

Last point: I am pretty sure that EEA members are subject to the EFTA court, not the ECJ.



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Old 10th Feb 2019, 18:58
  #4390 (permalink)  
 
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The question was stay in or leave. The result was leave. The last two years has just been fannying about trying to keep the loosers from doing anything to screw it up while the clock counts down. To be fair what they have done is just make a default exit more likely.

​​​​One of the relatively few facts is that the relationship between the UK and the EU is can fundementally changed and there is nothing that can change that. So leave has won in or out.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:02
  #4391 (permalink)  
 
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It is easy to say the UK is making a pig's ear of it but, despite being generally contemptuous of Mrs May and her ilk, I think it fair to say that as negotiations need 2 parties to state and then argue their side, then the EU must bear some blame. They seem to me as being dogmatic in the extreme. They have stated their argument and refused to budge. Shades of de Gaulle! So I would say it is 6 and 2 threes.
As for nobody else having the nerve to try it, weren't Denmark, Ireland, Netherlands, Greece and Italy all, at one time were on the verge of quitting. I seem to remember in the case of Netherlands, Denmark & Ireland it was related to the Lisbon Treaty. In most, if not all, of those cases politicians far more deft than ours conned the populations in those countries into saying "Oh well, never mind then".
Re the earlier arguments re the idea of UK having focussed on trade deals other than with the EU (at least, that was what I read Tescoapp's post as), I remember at the very beginning of this whole farce, the EU laid down the law that forbade the UK from doing trade deals with anyone outside the EU as EU rules mean that only the EU can do such trade deals. I remember thinking at the time that this was ridiculous; why could the UK not make arrangements with whomever they liked, with the proviso that "This arrangement comes into force at 00:01 GMT March 30th"?
I am sure there are sensible voices in the EU which may be thinking the UK may have some points and perhaps we should compromise a little. But those voices are not begin heard, leaving the impression that the EU is playing a bit like the playground bully. "It is my ball and if I say you can't kick it, then either accept my rules or sod off".
And for those stupid arguments about technology not being in place to alleviate border issues, well my understanding is that 90% of cross border goods clearances are done via technological means today. The exceptions being the small businesses etc. The next time the EU insist it is not possible because the technology has not yet been invented, someone should remind them of things such as railways. They had not yet been invented when the cries of you'll go insane riding such a contraption" or "at speeds above 30 mph you will be sucked out of the carriage to your death" were the then current vogue.
If only properly certified grown ups ran the affairs of State (both here and in the EU)!
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:24
  #4392 (permalink)  
 
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So Mrs May is pictured going to church today-is it because shes a parsons daughter or she is worried about Donald Tusks predictions

An odd state of affairs though , she who personally voted to stay , representing a constituency that voted to stay seems to think that the only thing that matters is leaving on a aprticular day whatever the consequences.

Of course she represents maidenhead a wealthy area and of course almost all wealthy areas voted remain or were 50:50 which does give you the impression that the people who run the country and its economy day to day are going to carry on sabotaging things until we rejoin .
Personally i think we should have a national analysis of social media and media readership to determine who voted leave so that they and only they have to go to the back of the immigration queue and are the first people to lose their jobs when their local multinationals close down or downsize
Talk about not taking responsibility for ones actions.

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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:31
  #4393 (permalink)  
 
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And Mr or Mrs Tesco app , when your food bill goes up in April and you face all sorts of inconveniences possibly losign your job all in the name of a ludicrous hundred years out of date view of the world and cry but its democracy the people have spoken that someone very famous said You can;t eat democracy!

And the relationship between Britain and continental Europe, we will still be in Europe whatever happens of course the pro Eu vote will just go on getting stronger because the young want it and when all the Mail reading old fools are dead or senile they will rejoin and dance on your grave. Actually they will probably do something else for ******* up their lives for ten years and exacerbating the inevitable division between elderly haves and younger have much less factions
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:33
  #4394 (permalink)  
 
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Just a reminder of where this all started from:




And a view from the EU:

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Old 10th Feb 2019, 19:53
  #4395 (permalink)  
 
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:24
  #4396 (permalink)  
 
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KelvinD

I remember at the very beginning of this whole farce, the EU laid down the law that forbade the UK from doing trade deals with anyone outside the EU as EU rules mean that only the EU can do such trade deals.
You haven’t quite remembered it correctly.

The fact that a member, any member, of the E.U. couldn’t go off and negotiate significant ad hoc bespoke trade agreements between just itself and countries outside the E.U., whilst remaining, or with the potential to remain in the bloc (e.g. Revoke A50) was always the rule, for what I would have thought would been obvious reasons. It wasn’t a brand new rule “laid down” at the beginning of this farce by the nasty E.U. simply to stymie the U.K. because it had decided to leave.

That was one of the “known knowns” in all this and I’m sure the politicians knew about it, pity it didn’t make the side of a bus.

As for your confidence for technological solutions for customs....

And for those stupid arguments about technology not being in place to alleviate border issues, well my understanding is that 90% of cross border goods clearances are done via technological means today. etc
...you may find this of interest:

https://www.voanews.com/a/brexit-les...n/4780407.html








Last edited by wiggy; 10th Feb 2019 at 20:36.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 20:32
  #4397 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
The question was stay in or leave. The result was leave. The last two years has just been fannying about trying to keep the loosers from doing anything to screw it up while the clock counts down. To be fair what they have done is just make a default exit more likely.
Imagine believing this. Imagine believing you are engaged with current affairs on a daily basis, following the twists & turns of this farce farce from the bold pronouncements of Fox & co, to the Chequers deal to the consistent unwavering EU stance & reaching the conclusion that the risk in all this is loosers (sic) derailing an otherwise perfectly executed process.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:16
  #4398 (permalink)  
 
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wiggy: I actually did remember correctly but I was guilty of not being clear in what I was trying to say. I suspect the phrase about the EU laying down the law may have been clearer if I had said something along the lines of the EU informing the UK they were to rigidly enforce the law. I suppose I was trying to say that naturally, the UK knew the rules and complied with them. However, I thought the EU ruling out preparatory talks/arrangements between the UK and elsewhere was short sighted and somewhat ruthlessly authoritarian.
Thanks for the link re automated border customs operations. It was significant that the items they have most issues with are things that have nothing at all to do with customs but rather local, immediately solvable issues such as wi-fi links between cameras, computers etc. Norway is not a poor country and I am sure the installation of a few miles of fibre would kill that "problem". "Snow blocking the cameras"! Really? So they have snow in Norway then? 30 odd years ago I was installing CCTV cameras for police forces here and there and they had these windscreen wiper things to keep the lenses clear. And should not be sufficient, then electrically heating the lens housing works a treat. So, absence of technology is not a valid reason to avoid its use. In fact, in one of the WTO's articles they virtually ban or perhaps seriously discourage) the introduction of paper based systems at borders. I was reading this on the WTO web site a couple of weeks back but can't remember which Article it was contained in. My guess of ca 90% of trade being dealt with electronically came from an interview I listened to on Radio 4 recently. I don't remember the name of the interviewee but he was someone heavily involved in such stuff and was not a government hack.
Lastly, that news item implies the border between Ireland and Ulster was the cause of 3,700 lives being lost. Absolute tosh!
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:48
  #4399 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
It is easy to say the UK is making a pig's ear of it but, despite being generally contemptuous of Mrs May and her ilk, I think it fair to say that as negotiations need 2 parties to state and then argue their side, then the EU must bear some blame. They seem to me as being dogmatic in the extreme. They have stated their argument and refused to budge. Shades of de Gaulle! So I would say it is 6 and 2 threes.
Of course they refused to budge. The EU is bound by the four freedoms which are the founding principles of the Union. Even if they wanted to budge, they could not do so without getting all 28 (as it was then) members to agree significant changes to those principles. And that was never going to happen.

How many times must it be said that Brexit is NOT a divorce. We are, sadly, simply leaving the EU. We may be significantly changed, but the only changes to the EU are its size and income. It continues in the same way.

Edit: Written before I saw your last post.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:23
  #4400 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
And Mr or Mrs Tesco app , when your food bill goes up in April and you face all sorts of inconveniences possibly losign your job all in the name of a ludicrous hundred years out of date view of the world and cry but its democracy the people have spoken that someone very famous said You can;t eat democracy!
Mr Tesco app will say any, and quite possibly all, of

(1) None of that stuff actually happened, look, I've got my eyes shut and my fingers in my ears and I'm singing la-la-la, so that proves it.
(2) OK, so it did happen, but it was nothing to do with #brexit, and without #brexit it would have happened worse.
(3) OK, so it did happen, and it was to do with #brexit, but it was all the fault of the remainers for not doing #brexit properly.
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