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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 17th Nov 2018, 07:02
  #421 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking of sense of humour. Have you seen this parody clip?

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Old 17th Nov 2018, 07:06
  #422 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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I support a call for a referendum;

"Should we have a referendum to have a referendum on leaving the EU?"

Yes

No
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 07:26
  #423 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by mik3bravo View Post
Speaking of sense of humour. Have you seen this parody clip?

Brexit: A Titanic Disaster
Not until now....but thanks for offering it....
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 09:53
  #424 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
And as for the person who questioned my comment that Britain does not make anything of value for export go and check out our 'current Account balance' and see what we export compared to import,
That would be me.

You're talking about two different things here.

You said that we don't make anything of value for export. That was the statement I challenged because it's demonstrably untrue. It does, though, suit the narrative propogated by many with leftish sympathies in whose eyes manufacturing is synonymous with the sort of heavy industry in which we can't be competitive anymore.

The fact that we import more than we export (as you correctly say) does not negate the fact that we do still export goods.

You might also note that since we do, indeed, import more than we export, that makes us a valuable market. If the EU wish to make it more difficult for themselves to access that market then more fool them.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 11:33
  #425 (permalink)  
 
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Andy S: It is people like yourself and your fellow travellers in the Tory party that guarantee nobody in my family could ever vote for that lot.
And here's some news for you; you are absolutely NOT the only person to have seen absolute poverty. The first place I ever saw dire poverty other than in the 3rd world, (kids in the street without shoes, houses made of bits of corrugated iron and scrap plywood) was in a suburb of Dallas in the 1970s. And now I am seeing it here in the UK. Do you think the Australian used the Sheraton in Jaywick, Essex?
Your snide remark re games consoles is beneath contempt yet is a useful indicator to how far up your backside your head may be.
I wonder if you watched the recent Panorama programme, highlighting the effects of the much vaunted Universal Credit system and how this is actually driving people into serious poverty, including throwing people onto the streets as the Universal Credit system breaks down and causes tenants to fall into rent arrears.
Speaking of Universal Credit, is it not time the electorate in the UK twigged what is going on here? The system is being used to subsidise employers. The stated aim of UC is to make it better for people to work, rather than rely on dole/social security handouts. Of course, it doesn't actually do that very well as there are still income thresholds, beyond which the credits are reduced. This means we still have people who have to choose their new jobs very carefully and frequently take offers of work for less than the full 38 hours or whatever. Provided their working week fulfills the criteria, the government gives them Tax Credit, up to a massive, get rich quick figure of £1,960 per year. As long as this situation exists, the ramifications are that business doesn't have to pay a "real" living wage. It is OK. They can pay a wage below this and Joe Taxpayer will top up the rest with some of his/her contribution. One can hear the anguished cry from employers "If I pay that level, I won't be able to stay in business". I would suggest that if an employer can not pay that level, they have no right being in business. So, the bottom line is this: so long as the tax payer provides these payments to top up wages, the government can trumpet "umpteen million in work vs 7 people unemployed". There is no rule that would oblige them to add riders to these claims such as "A high percentage of the umpteen millions are in jobs with little or no security, they are in jobs by way of zero hours contracts" etc.
Re the howls of anguish from smaller businesses and farmers in particular; over the last couple of years we have had our hearing damaged by the constant refrain of how they would have to shut up shop if the cheap labour from the EU was no longer available. I heard on the radio in the past week that 154,000 EU workers have returned to their home countries since the referendum. Yet I don't see the farms up for sale, nor the closure of restaurants and coffee shops etc. Has anybody else potted them?
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 11:35
  #426 (permalink)  
 
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Sallyann:
AIUI, and I will be happy to be corrected, it's not as simple as that. We have to apply as a new member and negotiate our entry.
I believe the UK is a member already, twice! We are members both in our own right and under the EU's membership.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 12:26
  #427 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Andy S: It is people like yourself and your fellow travellers in the Tory party that guarantee nobody in my family could ever vote for that lot.
I'm not a member of the Tory party.

Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
The first place I ever saw dire poverty other than in the 3rd world, (kids in the street without shoes, houses made of bits of corrugated iron and scrap plywood) was in a suburb of Dallas in the 1970s. And now I am seeing it here in the UK.
Sorry, but we don't have that sort of poverty in the UK. If it's really that bad, you wonder why so many people are trying to migrate here. We have welfare, pensions, a comprehensive education system free at the point of use healthcare,.....

That's not to say this country is perfect. Too many people do find it tough. We have our fair share of social problems. But we do not have 3rd world poverty.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 12:47
  #428 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Speaking of Universal Credit, is it not time the electorate in the UK twigged what is going on here? The system is being used to subsidise employers. The stated aim of UC is to make it better for people to work, rather than rely on dole/social security handouts. Of course, it doesn't actually do that very well as there are still income thresholds, beyond which the credits are reduced. This means we still have people who have to choose their new jobs very carefully and frequently take offers of work for less than the full 38 hours or whatever. Provided their working week fulfills the criteria, the government gives them Tax Credit, up to a massive, get rich quick figure of £1,960 per year. As long as this situation exists, the ramifications are that business doesn't have to pay a "real" living wage. It is OK. They can pay a wage below this and Joe Taxpayer will top up the rest with some of his/her contribution.
That canít be right, I thought the U.K. was all about the free market, minimal state interference and certainly no subsidies to keep uneconomic businesses afloat ....only those nasty socialists on the continent did that...

But yes, the whole UC debacle has managed to stay under the radar because of Brexit....and I suspect one aspiring darling of the right saw in last weeks events an opportunity to escape further blame for the mess and took it.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 13:13
  #429 (permalink)  
 
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The practice of the government paying part of the wages to keep employer's costs down started with Supplementary Benefit during Harold Wilson' tenure in 1968.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 13:16
  #430 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Sallyann:
I believe the UK is a member already, twice! We are members both in our own right and under the EU's membership.
Your belief is interesting, but do you have any links to confirm that?
I don't see how we can retain the EU's membership when we leave the EU.

Edit: This seems rather ambiguous
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e..._kingdom_e.htm
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 13:35
  #431 (permalink)  
 
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If you want to see how brilliant the EU Withdrawal deal is to the EU just look at the haste that they are pushing to get it approved by the 27.

If you want to see how awful the EU Withdrawal deal is to the UK just look at the absolute chaos here.

Need I say more ???
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 14:03
  #432 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
If you want to see how brilliant the EU Withdrawal deal is to the EU just look at the haste that they are pushing to get it approved by the 27.

If you want to see how awful the EU Withdrawal deal is to the UK just look at the absolute chaos here.

Need I say more ???
Why would anyone expect anything different? This was never a negotiation between equals.
It was a fight between two sides: In the red corner, 27 EU members backed by efficient trainers. In the blue corner, one ex-EU member with disunited trainers who couldn't decide how it should be fought.

Regardless of the ringside pundits who maintained that the EU would throw in the towel in the final round, it was never hard to see who was going to win.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 17:19
  #433 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
I'm not a member of the Tory party.



Sorry, but we don't have that sort of poverty in the UK. If it's really that bad, you wonder why so many people are trying to migrate here. We have welfare, pensions, a comprehensive education system free at the point of use healthcare,.....

That's not to say this country is perfect. Too many people do find it tough. We have our fair share of social problems. But we do not have 3rd world poverty.

Indeed, we do not have 3rd world poverty. We do however have a growing number of people sleeping on streets, caught up in a spiral of drug use/mental health deterioration and absolute poverty. Many of those who migrate here are desperate to escape persecution, poverty and a lack of opportunity. The irony is that many end up on the streets. Some become national treasures (Mo Farrah for instance), some get the assistance they need and become successful members of society. It is a fact, however that too many people are in the 'have nots' catagory. I do not know the answer but sometimes when you hear the like of Rees-Mogg claiming that "we will have ten years of pain after brexit but it will be all worthwhile in the end", I do wonder if anyone actually cares anymore.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 19:00
  #434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
The inconvenient issue, well several million inconveniences to be more accurate, of those suffering the effects of poverty in the UK was mentioned in passing on here and duly derided .

Strange as it may seem therefore, the interview with the UN representative strikes me as balanced and credible, devoid of embellishment...and a damning insight as to how the "caring " party have induced this as a result of their policies......that's in the first interview.
His comments were pretty damned shocking... I'm not political in any way (even Maggie passed me without registering much on the conscience)... but it's a stretch of any imagination to call the Tories "caring".... unless "caring" for wealth fund managers has meaning.... slowly though, but surely, the curtain is rising on the philosophy, ethics and values of the Conservatives, people are seeing the party in its true unvarnished form.. and the sight isn't pretty. My thoughts (for what they are worth) is this is the beginning of the end for them - the slow decline has started - and eventually they will become extinct - yes they are masters of reinvention but I don't think they can reinvent themselves in a way that doesn't entirely betray their objectives whilst satisfying the electorate who have almost have had a paradigm shift in values.

I do think though a lot more needs to be made of these findings.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 19:12
  #435 (permalink)  
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70% of Conservative party members oppose May’s draft deal

https://www.conservativehome.com/the...exit-deal.html
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 01:07
  #436 (permalink)  
 
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ď70%of Tory members oppose ...Ē. Yes, roughly half each-way for exactly opposite reasons. Nobody is delighted including me. But simply not liking something is pointless toddler-behaviour unless it comes with a better proposal and a realistic plan for attaining it.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 05:17
  #437 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
His comments were pretty damned shocking..... but it's a stretch of any imagination to call the Tories "caring"...

I do think though a lot more needs to be made of these findings.
I think you may have inadvertently misread my post.

It was the Tory PR spin machine that declared they were now the party of the people and a caring party.

My own, and several million other residents of the UK, have a rather different and more realistic understanding as to the meaning of the word when applicable to those Tory ideologists hence the " " in my post.

Back to the world of fantasy, the one with so much appeal for so many on here and elsewhere and today's depiction....

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...n-this-cartoon

OK, it's not a unicorn, but, it's a very close relative and is suitably apt.....


Last edited by Krystal n chips; 18th Nov 2018 at 05:46.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 05:33
  #438 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
The irony is that many end up on the streets. Some become national treasures (Mo Farrah for instance), some get the assistance they need and become successful members of society.
Once Farrah had received all the benefits of UK asylum, education, healthcare etc, he skedaddled off to the USA where he wouldn't have to pay UK tax.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 05:33
  #439 (permalink)  
 
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Andy S: You ought to read things a little more closely. I didn't accuse you of being a Tory. I mentioned "fellow travellers". And your comment about not having that kind of poverty here is risible. Until quite recently, that may have been a reasonable comment. Now we see phenomena I have never seen before on this country with thousands of people literally homeless and relying every week on charities to provide free food. That is not what one expects of a so-called wealthy, first world country.
Fareastdriver: Was it in 1968 or 1966? I don't know what sort of levels of income made one eligible for Supplementary Benefit but I do remember earning £9 per week in 1966 and not being eligible. I think things are considerably different now.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 07:58
  #440 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Once Farrah had received all the benefits of UK asylum, education, healthcare etc, he skedaddled off to the USA where he wouldn't have to pay UK tax.
He actually lived in the US for 6 years so he could train at the world-leading Nike facility in Oregon, so no different to anyone else in a job where being an expat helps their career. Since he ended his track career heís been back living in the UK.

An expat bad mouthing someone for being an expat!!! Surely there canít be an ulterior motive?
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