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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 5th Feb 2019, 22:17
  #4121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
An authoritarian streak a mile wide is something your forebears fought in the war to rid the world of. The same war you didn't experience by the way, just as you didn't experience the empire.
I have absolutely no idea of what you might mean by "authoritarian streak" but have insufficient interest to bother about it.

Nor do I understand what you mean by "experience" of the War. Your peculiar assertions made without any knowledge of me or my circumstances are quite wrong. I was too young to participate under arms but I certainly was old enough to be evacuated and well remember the unhappiness of this following the bombing of our house in 1942; this was a personally distressing "experience" of the conflict. Then and for a few years thereafter, the British Empire was extant, so I have "experienced" that too. I do wish you would try to curb that unpleasantness which characterises so many of your posts.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 22:39
  #4122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MFC_Fly View Post
Let me correct that for you.
Let me correct that for you. You're the second person to quote my post out of context. It was quite specific and focused on the supply of medical isotopes.

This may be a small issue for somebody to score cheap points about parliamentary sovereignty (which by the way, is a redundant argument on May's watch) but for patients awaiting clinical investigations or treatment, it is a question that needs to be answered urgently.

We're done here.

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Old 5th Feb 2019, 22:42
  #4123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post
We know a Bobby from London...around 40 years of age. He is VERY excited for a Hard Brexit to occur, as the money will start pouring in, and GB will be Great Again.
I've talked to three? people from the Home Country (we're from two different colonies) lately, and they all agree Brexit will be a disaster.
I think that Brexit will not go well, Scotland will leave to join the EU, and probably N. Ireland will leave to join Ireland. Some other Brit told me that he thinks Wales will even leave to join the EU!

Brexit will be, maybe, THE worst thing to happen to the British Isles since the Great Flood, and certainly the worst calamity to happen to the UK since the HMS Hood was sunk.
Interesting that it is people from the Unionist tradition who I know in NI, mainly through relatives here who express the view on a United Ireland. They see any border going up as a disaster plus only the DUP who were in favour and they have little truck with as they called it "Paisley's Bastard Children". Seeing London looking to screw them has made them look at the way Dublin is the ones trying to keep the trading going and no return to the old days.

Bearing in mind distant relatives of theirs were in RUC / UDR and some have indicated their previous hatred of Catholics but more than one or two are saying that in a United Ireland vote they would either hold their noses and vote for it or abstain. At a function 2 weeks ago the No / Yes / abstain was probably coming out similar in a discussion and even the No's were struggling to convince themselves it was good for their family. I think a Poll is a few years off but I sense momentum has started to move.

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Old 6th Feb 2019, 00:11
  #4124 (permalink)  
 
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Found elsewhere, credit to the original author;

The UK's idea of a united Europe has never been more than that of a tariff free trading area.
In spite of this, the European community, specifically the Germans and the Dutch, liked the prospect of sharing European club membership with British free-traders, apparently to provide a counterbalance to overbearing French state interventionists.
Having twice vetoed British entry into what was then called the European Common Market, France eventually relented and agreed to Britain's accession in 1973.
Soon, however, France and the other EEC members had to deal with UK "opt-outs" from the legislative and regulatory provisions that London was finding far too contrary to its governmental traditions and the transfer of powers to unelected officials at the European Commission.
Now, nearly three years after the referendum to leave the EU, the UK is now in the final stages of negotiating its exit.
Germany planted the seeds of destruction.
Although the form of the UK exit from the EU is often presented as a reductionist binary choice — "a no-deal exit" or "a deal that both the UK and the EU can live with" — the UK has, in effect, restated the fundamental question of "What exactly is the European project?": A Europe of sovereign nation states, or a federal European super-state?
The disastrous fiscal austerity policies imposed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel on sinking eurozone economies at the beginning of this decade, and her subsequent naive and disorderly open-door immigration policy in 2015 have been a catalyst and a detonator of strong centrifugal forces throughout the European Union.
In response to cataclysmic shocks from the 2008 financial crash, Merkel set out to chastise the Eurozone "fiscal miscreants" and those unable to control their banks (Spain). In the process, she rebuffed American President Barack Obama's request to ease up on her devastating fiscal austerity, because Washington was rightly concerned that a deep and intractable European recession would hit hard the one-fifth of American exports that went to the EU.
To those calling for some European solidarity, Merkel retorted that it's basically everybody for themselves and Germany continuing to live well from its trade surpluses with the eurozone partners whilst pursuing a "black/ zero" budget balance.
Donald Trump understood all that. He told Merkel that German freeloading on the U.S. was over, and so was Washington's underwriting of German military security. Apparently shocked by the lack of American solidarity (gullibility), Merkel's response was that "Europeans truly have to take our own fate into our own hands." In other words, never mind, Germany will continue to bilk the rest of Europe.
That, however, was too late for Merkel and Germany. Her policies have led to the right wing Alternative for Germany (AfD) shooting up from zero votes in 2013 to the country's third-largest political party now.
And that was also an eye opener for some smarter Europeans. When the Hungarians saw that Merkel was going to direct refugees to them, Budapest said it didn't want Berlin to decide who was going to live in Hungary.
Berlin and a Berlin "influenced" European Commission were outraged at that lack of Hungarian European solidarity. A German EU budget commissioner publicly threatened that he would cut off regional development funds to which Hungary was entitled under EU rules.
Germany got its next surprise from Italy. Rome finally summoned the courage to say "basta!" (enough!), after being left alone for years to handle thousands of African and Middle-Eastern migrants and refugees landing on its shores. Berlin's only response to Italian appeals for European solidarity during that time was to criticize Rome for refusing to honor the maritime traffic laws and to rescue people in danger.
To rebuke Italy for refusing to follow Germany's diktat on immigration policies, Berlin led the assault on Italian attempts to rescue its sinking economy with fiscal policies that were well within the eurozone budget rules. Germany and it's EU Commission got exactly what they wanted: The Italian economy sank into recession late last year, and will probably remain there for most of 2019.
The story is not over, though. Italy is now teaming up with Hungary and Poland to create an anti-German and anti-French block, with unpredictable consequences for the EU's future.
All this is happening at a time when France is split by violent and deepening social unrest. Some conservative French thinkers call it a "civil war", in a country prone to "violence" and "revolutions". The French government has no answer to three months of demonstrations and rioting by a social movement dubbed "yellow vests." Watching an increasingly violent police, the French governing elites are organizing town hall discussions, apparently believing that they can wear down, and wait out, their opponents.
But, as things now stand, there seems no end to the French political crisis. Last Saturday, for example, about 60,000 people demonstrated and rioted in all major French cities, confronted by 80,000 police in combat gear.
For the time being, the French government is in control, thanks to massive police operations and the fact that the rioting social groups have neither the leadership nor the plans that would offer viable alternatives for the transition of power in the quasi-imperial presidential system of the Fifth Republic.
By comparison however, a weak and disoriented German government looks like a paragon of stability. However the governing coalition forces can't wait to see the back of Merkel. The right-of-center CDU/CSU sister parties are still trying to settle their differences and their hapless Socialist (SPD) partners are looking for a major change in leadership style, which is highly unlikely with Merkels annointed successor.
Also everybody is waiting to see what political forces will emerge from the European parliamentary elections in late May. The event is billed as a decisive showdown between the political establishment, and what are derisively called "populist" demagogues and illiberal democracies.
This huge European mess is exactly what Trump and the U.K. need in order to settle their trade scores with a disintegrating European Union.
Will the euro survive all that?
The probability is very high that it will. The euro is in the hands of the European Central Bank, and no member country now has an overwhelming anti-euro constituency.
Germany is terrified of reverting to the DM, as its strength as a safe haven currency would result in exports becoming very expensive in destination markets. The Bundesbank would then need to artificially devalue the currency, opening the door to domestic inflation.
Alternatively, perhaps a demise of the euro would only reinforce a German fiscal domination of fragmented European nations. The long pre-euro experience shows that no close neighbour would be immune from that, either by managed or free-floating exchange rates. The German central bank would then be on par with the U.S. Federal Reserve, and the Bundesbank would reclaim its old role as a lecturer-in-chief on world economy and finance.
But many in Europe find such a German domination unacceptable. Europe's old sleeping demons may soon awaken, and Washington would have to step in to keep the so called European "brothers" from each other's throats.
And here is how Henry Kissinger talks in his memoirs about a most humiliating history lesson he received on that topic from the towering French President Charles de Gaulle. Egged on by President Richard Nixon during his visit to France in the 1960s, in order to challenge de Gaulle's ideas about Germany, Kissinger piqued the haughty General with the question how he would prevent Germany from dominating Europe. De Gaulle's answer was clear and simple: "Through war."
If I were in the pay of the EU, I would now fear the UK's exit from the EU either with, or without a deal. This might then offer a template for other nations who seek to exit the EU - though exiting the euro currency would be more problematical of course.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 06:06
  #4125 (permalink)  
 
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Some conservative French thinkers call it a "civil war", in a country prone to "violence" and "revolutions".
As you rightly say, that is the opinion of some conservative thinkers, and a image popular in the some parts of the U.K. media....no surprise there...


As someone with “boots on the ground” and with offspring who are students in one of the cities most effected by this supposed “civil war” could I offer my option?

The reality is that for most people living in some of the bigger cities in France it’s usually at worse it’s a case of sometimes having to be tactical in which street you are on at some time some Saturday or Sunday PMs ...it is hardly “civil war”...There is however no doubt it is a PITA and issues need resolving, as Mr Macron has finally recognised.

As an final aside I’m not sure if France is any more prone to revolutions (or for that matter civil wars) than a few other neighbouring countries I can think of.




Last edited by wiggy; 6th Feb 2019 at 06:39.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 06:19
  #4126 (permalink)  
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There would appear to be a shortage of "Bienvenue Chris ! " signs on Calais. As the article says, he's now managed to extend his incompetence across the Channel....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ports-chairman

Anyway, a few posts ago, there was a deeply impassioned plea for other political topics to emerge on here .....sadly this plea ignored the fact some had, but no matter because .......

" Guardian to be prosecuted under Obscene Publications Act ! "

The question is though, will Cranwell be capable of handling the extra traffic as the pilgrims flock in their droves to prostrate themselves ...or will Spitalgate ( International ) emerge to provide a much needed boost for the local economy !

Of course, there's always the ECML, albeit the bleak windswept platforms at Grantham are not really what you would class as being "International " standard .....and the least said about the A52 the better

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ed-in-grantham

Less I be accused of being churlish about Grantham, there is, or maybe was, a very good greasy spoon adjacent to the Honda dealers....

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 6th Feb 2019 at 09:07.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 08:17
  #4127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
I have absolutely no idea of what you might mean by "authoritarian streak" but have insufficient interest to bother about it.

Nor do I understand what you mean by "experience" of the War. Your peculiar assertions made without any knowledge of me or my circumstances are quite wrong. I was too young to participate under arms but I certainly was old enough to be evacuated and well remember the unhappiness of this following the bombing of our house in 1942; this was a personally distressing "experience" of the conflict. Then and for a few years thereafter, the British Empire was extant, so I have "experienced" that too. I do wish you would try to curb that unpleasantness which characterises so many of your posts.
Of course you don't care. You don't care to the extent you wrote a long response. Nothing says I'm not interested like a quick few hundred words. On the subject of unpleasantness, which others might interpret as contrasting views but whatever, I remind you of what led to the last exchange:

Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
There has been no need for the Remain against Leave antagonism - indeed these two factions are wasting emotional energy in engaging in this internecine confrontation when the real enemy against whom they should pit their combined strength is the two Houses of Parliament.
I expect torrents from the usual suspects.
Feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted you, as I believe in freedom of speech, even for you, and in my case, that involves a no pasaran, kids when some dude on the internet promotes the idea that the greater good of making parliament sovereign is best served by attacking parliament's sovereignty. If you would prefer to avoid what you construe as unpleasantness, then if I were you, I'd avoid punting ideas that would have Pinochet blushing.

No matter, taking you & a couple of others at face value, am I to believe that seventy years on, those war experiences are forming a significant element of your thinking that we should leave the EU? Is that right? How does this work? A generation of Germans who are more or less all dead now but once threatened our very existence should form the basis of a thought process that pushes us away from Europe? Do I have that right?
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 08:39
  #4128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Private jet View Post
Found elsewhere, credit to the original author;
How can you credit the author without giving their name?

The usual procedure with very long articles is simply to provide a link, so that people can choose to read the article in context and can reply if they wish to the author.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 09:34
  #4129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sfm818 View Post
Let me correct that for you. You're the second person to quote my post out of context. It was quite specific and focused on the supply of medical isotopes.

This may be a small issue for somebody to score cheap points about parliamentary sovereignty (which by the way, is a redundant argument on May's watch) but for patients awaiting clinical investigations or treatment, it is a question that needs to be answered urgently.

We're done here.
I did not quote you out of context, I quoted the bit where you blamed this whole thing (be it medical isotopes or anything else Brexit related that people want to blame him alone for) on David Cameron, whereas in fact it was a Parliamentary decision to both hold the referendum and trigger Article 50.

No scoring of any political points, simply stating the fact that the current situation is the result of over 600 people in the House of Commons, over 700 people in the House of Lords, and over 17 million UK adult voters, not just a single person.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 10:22
  #4130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
How can you credit the author without giving their name?

The usual procedure with very long articles is simply to provide a link, so that people can choose to read the article in context and can reply if they wish to the author.
Sometime the facts need to be laid out.
It does rather leave the remainiacs floundering when there is no one to attack though.......
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 11:16
  #4131 (permalink)  
 
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This tells you all you need to know about how Mrs. May is going to be received tomorrow in Brussels - Tusks words are absolutely priceless.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47143135

I wonder why she is wasting time and money trotting over there to be told what most people knew anyway, and it is clearer now than ever that a) the EU isn't going to budge significantly on the back stop; and b) that they are going to stand four square with the Irish in negating the worst effects for them of a shambolic Brexit.

The ERG and DUP need to wake up and smell the proverbial coffee. If they really want Brexit, then the only deal on the table is the May plan, with or without the odd cosmetic tweak regarding the future relationship, otherwise I can see some interesting amendments getting through the Commons on Valentines day that could effective scupper the whole project.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 11:31
  #4132 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post

I wonder why she is wasting time and money trotting over there to be told what most people knew anyway
Another few days wasted, a bit more off the clock towards no deal, the blame game & salvation of the Conservative (LOL) and Unionist (DOUBLE LOL) party. It's the only logical conclusion of her complete balls up of an impossible plan. Brace.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 11:49
  #4133 (permalink)  
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Latest YouGov poll on Jeremy Corbyn.....

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...source=twitter

”He was a man of principle, until he broke them all.......”


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Old 6th Feb 2019, 12:05
  #4134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Latest YouGov poll on Jeremy Corbyn.....

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...source=twitter

”He was a man of principle, until he broke them all.......”


I don't think that is telling us anything we didn't already know. Corbyn resides in an echo chamber in which he listens only to his cronies from the momentum wing of the party, apparently oblivious to the damage that his leadership is doing to the party's support in the country at large. I suspect that Mrs. May is doing similar with her hard right and the Tory party membership.

At some time both parties are going to have to stop listening exclusively to their own paid up supporters, and begin listening to the country. I'm unsure when the penny is going to drop with either.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 12:15
  #4135 (permalink)  
 
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He's a gibbering flake who has managed to make Labour less popular in the polls than the worst government since Lord of the flies. Still, bringing him up does take attention off the obvious ever present elephant in the room.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 12:21
  #4136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
He's a gibbering flake who has managed to make Labour less popular in the polls than the worst government since Lord of the flies. Still, bringing him up does take attention off the obvious ever present elephant in the room.
Returning to the elephant, there are a lot of other interesting poll results on the yougov link that ORAC kindly provided. Including that the majority of Britains support the idea of an extension to the Art. 50 date; whereas a majority of Germans and French are against. The results from Scandinavian countries were rather more sympathetic to the UK participant's opinions.

Also, away from "Nellie" a majority also appear to believe that Liam Neeson wasn't being racist in his interview reported yesterday. I totally agree with the majority there.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 12:37
  #4137 (permalink)  
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rch-for-talent

Norwegian Air Shifts Long-Haul HQ to London in Search for Talent
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 12:44
  #4138 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rch-for-talent

Norwegian Air Shifts Long-Haul HQ to London in Search for Talent
Congratulations, another benefit of Brexit; should you some way to negate the hundreds of job losses coming up in the manufacturing and banking sectors!
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 12:47
  #4139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Another few days wasted, a bit more off the clock towards no deal, the blame game & salvation of the Conservative (LOL) and Unionist (DOUBLE LOL) party. It's the only logical conclusion of her complete balls up of an impossible plan. Brace.
When you have the likes of his saintlyhood Bliar playing for your team then your despair is understandable.
Still you get in bed with the Devil....
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 12:50
  #4140 (permalink)  
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https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/0...going-to-hell/

The most revealing part of Tusk’s press conference wasn’t about Brexiteers going to hell

Westminster is in a flurry this afternoon over Donald Tusk’s comments at a press conference this morning with Leo Varadkar. The European Council president used the platform to declare that there was a ‘special place in hell’ for ‘those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it safely’. Tusk even went on to tweet out his comments – just in case anyone had missed the moment in the conference. Adding insult to injury the EU Council president has also been caught on mic laughing about the likely angry response from the British.

Tusk is at least right that his latest outburst has landed badly in the UK – with Andrea Leadsom the first Cabinet Minister to publicly criticise him in response. At a time when EU officials and leaders – including Angela Merkel – have been calling for compromise and goodwill on both sides to resolve the remaining issues and achieve a deal, Tusk’s comments appear to do the opposite. However, the most telling part of the press conference actually relates to something else he said. We already knew that Tusk isn’t much of a fan of Brexit – nor the people who campaigned for it. What is new is Tusk saying that those pushing for a second referendum – or simply for the UK to remain in the EU – are misguided:

‘I know that still a very great number of people in the UK, and on the continent, as well as in Ireland, wish for a reversal of this decision. I have always been with you, with all my heart. But the facts are unmistakable. At the moment, the pro-Brexit stance of the UK prime minister, and the Leader of the Opposition, rules out this question. Today, there is no political force and no effective leadership for Remain. I say this without satisfaction, but you can’t argue with the facts.’
This is significant. Up until now, there has been a belief among lead figures in the EU and at the Commission – including Tusk – that if they pushed the UK far enough, the result would not be no deal but a second referendum where Remain would win.......

It seems that the past few weeks of votes in the Commons and statements from Labour – have finally been enough to show Brussels that – for now – Remain is not a likely option. Instead, a majority in the Commons want the UK to leave the EU at the end of March – preferably with a deal. It follows that despite the anger from Tusk and his hell comments, today could actually mark a turning point for the negotiations.
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