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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 30th Jan 2019, 18:09
  #3821 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I am pretty much resigned to an unsatisfactory outcome now. Over the next two months I intend to structure my finances to prevent suffering any fallout from a NoDeal. It's not ideal but it's a situation not of my making and I certainly won't feel guilty whatever the outcome, however bad. It's everyone for himself now.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 18:32
  #3822 (permalink)  
 
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No deal would be a terrible outcome. But a deal which offered us only limited EU access and also stopped us doing trade deals with the other 170 or so countries in the world would be catastrophically worse. So why would anyone wish to tie our negotiators hands and potentially commit us to a worse-than-no-deal? Surely that would an act of national sabotage?
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 19:32
  #3823 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
No deal would be a terrible outcome. But a deal which offered us only limited EU access and also stopped us doing trade deals with the other 170 or so countries in the world would be catastrophically worse. So why would anyone wish to tie our negotiators hands and potentially commit us to a worse-than-no-deal? Surely that would an act of national sabotage?
Or massive self interest.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 19:58
  #3824 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Nick Boles yesterday: I voted for the ref & art 50. I now understand much more than I did then. The argument that Parliament knew exactly what they were doing then is as weak as the one leavers bandy about insisting they knew exactly what they were voting for, up to but not limited to a ferry company with no boats, forty million freezers on the public purse, the Kent countryside tarmaced over and so on.
I don't think May has done a good job at all.

When she first took power she acted like the hardest Brexiteer in town and tried to exclude Parliament.

She knew that she would struggle to get a good deal from the EU, so she tried to create a situation where she could implement a bad one. If no one liked it, she could blame the referendum voters.

She dragged out EU negotiations for the full two years, so no one could accuse her of caving in early. If she came away with a bad deal, it would be the EU's fault not hers.

She continued to push parliament to accept a bad deal, using the threat of no-deal as leverage. If her deal succeeded, then she won and could blame the referendum. If it failed, she had delivered the referendum and could blame Parliament and the EU.
All the way through, she selects options that will provide the best 'escape route' in the event of failure.
It does not make for effective leadership and it's certainly not inspirational, but it seems to be a remarkably successful way to cling to power.

Dividea et Imperia indeed; aided by those, who out of spite, along with a good dose of hubris, refused to accept the democratic majority and emboldened those who wished ill on our nation.

Every single one of you are as much to blame for the ongoing fiasco as May herself.

Congratulations.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 20:47
  #3825 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by weemonkey View Post

Dividea et Imperia indeed; aided by those, who out of spite, along with a good dose of hubris, refused to accept the democratic majority and emboldened those who wished ill on our nation.

Every single one of you are as much to blame for the ongoing fiasco as May herself.
.
You are going to have to explain exactly what you mean by that.

If you are implying that everybody in the electorate should must fall into line and unquestionably and mindlessly support the winning side the minute the result of a vote, any vote (referendum, General Election) is announced then you have an interesting idea of democracy......

And no, thanks for the offer of blame share but I for one (and I’m one of many) am not to blame for this ongoing fiasco.

Last edited by wiggy; 30th Jan 2019 at 21:14.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 20:55
  #3826 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
Next debate 14th of feb.
Really clever choice of date. Some of us might have preferred to spend that evening doing things other than hanging around Westminster in the cold.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 21:21
  #3827 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Really clever choice of date. Some of us might have preferred to spend that evening doing things other than hanging around Westminster in the cold.
Don't worry about it There is so much loving going on in Westminster that your contribution won't be needed.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 22:12
  #3828 (permalink)  
 
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parapunter: I amont sure you or virginblue properly read what I had written. There is absolutely NO law either here in the UK nor in the EU that says that if UK is no longer a member of the EU, then the UK must build a border between Ireland and the UK. Nor anywhere else for that matter. As I said, if the EU wishes to create a border between Ireland and the UK, then "fill yer boots".
And, as I also said, the Good Friday peace agreement doesn't stipulate a hard border or no border at all making some of the utterances from Varadkar and the EU about the need to have no border in order to protect that agreement are null and void.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 22:26
  #3829 (permalink)  
 
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You're indulging in wishful thinking. The EU will not permit an open border into it's territory, irrespective of the number of times you offer a contrary view.

Moreover, you're doing what all leavers do , blaming the EU for a problem the collective you created. Every single time some foreseeable issue comes up, one or other of you are in here like a shot blaming the EU, remainers, bad weather, the obesity crisis, anyone but your own myopia. It's depressingly predictable. Fill yer own boots.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 22:38
  #3830 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like a permeable border to me! https://www.google.com/search?q=migr...gS39sAtvdSBCM:
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 23:53
  #3831 (permalink)  
 
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To save your world you asked this man to die.
Would this man, could he see you now, ask why?
Gipsy Queen is online now  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 05:06
  #3832 (permalink)  
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There's nothing like a tried and tested philosophy when times get tough......and hence here's Treeza being true to Tory form and merrily offering to chuck some cash in the direction of constituencies whose MP's vote may come in useful..........this tactic worked quite well, well almost, but not quite, with the DUP because the beauty of bribery is that it's tangible.

What Treeza forgets, is, that if this money is now suddenly available ( maybe a certain tree came into blossom and fruited a bit early this year ) why wasn't it available and being distributed prior to her desperation being so glaringly apparent ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ns-over-brexit

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a viewable link for the piece on C4 News last night, the one containing an interview with the gentleman who just happens to run Dover docks.....now, apart from the fact he actually knows what he's talking about.....in contrast to some of the expertise offered by the JB logisticscenti and another with a haulage owner who again, inconveniently for many on here, knew what he was talking about, there was a brief but telling clip of lorries transiting the docks without restrictions.

Leaving aside those on here who are genuinely experienced in logistics and haulage. possibly some of those referred to above could explain how this free flow of traffic will continue after March 29th as matter currently stand.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 06:28
  #3833 (permalink)  
 
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For those that can’t bear to click on anything containing the G word here is another take on this story...


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cking-MPs.html

“coalfield communities”...that’s not an expression I’ve heard in a while...........
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 06:44
  #3834 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
For those that can’t bear to click on anything containing the G word here is another take on this story...


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cking-MPs.html

“coalfield communities”...that’s not an expression I’ve heard in a while...........
It's the opening line which is classical Mail.

This bit about "will persuade ", which implies, at least in Mail editorial speak, she already hasl. Had the rag said "hopes to," or "will attempt to " this would have been more accurate.....so no precedents being set with this report in this respect. There again, there was no mention of house prices in these communities either.....

And of course, to appease the readership, a passing mention that the Gov't are doing so now because Labour, naturally, have done nothing.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 07:27
  #3835 (permalink)  
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POLITICO:

https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/l...per-noughties/

”....So where’s Jeremy Corbyn in all this? The Labour leader himself met with May to discuss Brexit yesterday, but at this stage the chances of Corbyn offering frontbench support to get May’s deal through look pretty slim. Equally, however, it is now pretty clear that he will dish out no reprisals to those Labour MPs who defied his orders in Tuesday night’s votes. Corbyn said yesterday he was “very disappointed” at the rebellion and would be “having discussions” with the relevant MPs. One of those involved texts Playbook: “Can’t wait for this meeting. JC talking about how people should stick to the whip will be a treat.”

Let’s get real: Playbook would suggest you don’t bother holding your breath for these showdown talks. The truth is that in some ways it would rather suit Team Corbyn if May could eventually get a version of her Brexit deal over the line, without Labour getting its hands dirty by cutting a deal. The calculation inside the leader’s office might even be that if the PM achieves that via backroom deals with some Labour MPs — in return for pledges on investment, workers’ rights and the environment — it wouldn’t be the end of the world.

But could they go further? On Peston last night, however, Greg Clark suggested the government could and should be reaching out much further to win over a larger bloc of Labour votes. “I’ve always thought when you have a 52-48 result in the referendum, you have to have a deal that respects the fact that it was close,” the business secretary said. “And when you followed that with a general election that didn’t have a party with a majority, I think it’s incumbent on parliament … [to] come together.” He went on: “Not only do I think it is necessary for people to come together across partisan lines, but actually I think if we are to properly move forward I don’t think we should aim for this deal to pass by a majority of one or two … I would like to see a substantial majority for a deal.”

This really matters: Because what Clark appears to be advocating is offering a much softer Brexit deal — presumably a permanent customs union, though he was careful not to say so — that might win over Labour votes en masse. This remains a live discussion among Cabinet ministers, although Theresa May has been very clear so far she is not prepared to risk splitting her party by making such an offer. Nonetheless, Labour sources said she was asking lots of interested questions about Labour’s support for a customs union in her meeting with Corbyn yesterday. No. 10 officials were equally quick to play that down — but it’s definitely one to watch.

And right on cue: BuzzFeed’s Alex Wickham suggests some Tory Brexiteers may actually be warming to the idea of a permanent customs union. EU chiefs have made clear that if Britain “evolves its red lines” (translation: offers to join the customs unions and/or single market) then they would be prepared to look again at the Irish backstop. Now prominent Brexiteers tell Wickham this may not be the worst idea. “We cannot leave the backstop. A permanent customs union you could leave,” one says, somewhat paradoxically. Another agrees: “A different person in charge could get us out.”..........
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 07:33
  #3836 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
parapunter: I amont sure you or virginblue properly read what I had written. There is absolutely NO law either here in the UK nor in the EU that says that if UK is no longer a member of the EU, then the UK must build a border between Ireland and the UK. Nor anywhere else for that matter. As I said, if the EU wishes to create a border between Ireland and the UK, then "fill yer boots".
And, as I also said, the Good Friday peace agreement doesn't stipulate a hard border or no border at all making some of the utterances from Varadkar and the EU about the need to have no border in order to protect that agreement are null and void.
I'm afraid you're wrong. Under the much vaunted WTO regulations so beloved of (particularly) the ERG, where countries are working under different customs jurisdictions there has to be customs intervention, and however you flower that up, it mean a hard border for freight traffic. End of. This was eloquently explained by the former Europe Minister, Denis McShane on Euronews this morning. From the EU perspective, again (and I've said it several times before) the NI / Ireland border becomes an external EU land border. These borders, be they Poland / Ukraine or Bulgaria / Turkey have to be controlled. It may be possible that the UK / EU can fudge that issue for the Irish border as regards movement of people across it, we'll have to wait and see on that.

McShane also made another interesting observation regarding UK TV and press journalists, whom he said sit in the Westminster bubble, are very competent on UK politics, pretty good on US politics but fail to read and watch European news and therefore fail to understand and therefore explain accurately the EU position. UK MPs are similarly naive.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 07:38
  #3837 (permalink)  
 
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parapunter: I think you are allowing your zeal to get the better of you. I was not indulging in any wishful thinking, I was merely offering an opinion on your earlier statement to the effect that Varadkar must impose a border or wind up in court. A border pretty much invariably involves 2 countries/territories, known as "one side or the other". I will say again, if the UK chooses not to install the usual border post impedimenta then that is entirely the right of the UK. What the EU does on its side of the border is entirely up to them and they can, as I said, fill their boots and choose to erect or not erect border installations or to search or not to search traffic entering the EU etc.
As for blaming someone, I didn't indulge in any such thing. I did point out that Varadkar and the EU have repeatedly mentioned a "need" for an open border because of the Good Friday agreement when that agreement contains no such stipulation.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 07:47
  #3838 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
parapunter: I think you are allowing your zeal to get the better of you. I was not indulging in any wishful thinking, I was merely offering an opinion on your earlier statement to the effect that Varadkar must impose a border or wind up in court. A border pretty much invariably involves 2 countries/territories, known as "one side or the other". I will say again, if the UK chooses not to install the usual border post impedimenta then that is entirely the right of the UK. What the EU does on its side of the border is entirely up to them and they can, as I said, fill their boots and choose to erect or not erect border installations or to search or not to search traffic entering the EU etc.
As for blaming someone, I didn't indulge in any such thing. I did point out that Varadkar and the EU have repeatedly mentioned a "need" for an open border because of the Good Friday agreement when that agreement contains no such stipulation.
So, a hard border will come about if there is no agreement. And according to you, it will be the EU that puts it up. Got it.

The takeaway is there will be a hard border.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 07:47
  #3839 (permalink)  
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I'm afraid you're wrong. Under the much vaunted WTO regulations so beloved of (particularly) the ERG, where countries are working under different customs jurisdictions there has to be customs intervention, and however you flower that up, it mean a hard border for freight traffic. End of.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/t...land-1.3711188

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/614...l#post10370127
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 07:49
  #3840 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
To save your world you asked this man to die.
Would this man, could he see you now, ask why?
If he worked for Schaeffer, Sony or Panasonic, I expect he would.
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