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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 28th Jan 2019, 10:20
  #3581 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Not the same thing at all. The rising generations will be able to vote to change the government in the next election, and again every five years or less.
Brexit is a once and forever move. If we ever wanted to reapply we will have lost our current concessions. And what would we have to do to persuade every one of the 27 to have us back?
No, it's a very different situation.
Exactly. That cat has long left the bag.

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Old 28th Jan 2019, 10:21
  #3582 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Parapunter, what have you in mind as non tariff delays? Simple delays at customs, extra paperwork etc?

If these persist it would have an immediate impact, mitigated by stock piling before Brexit until the logistics chain is reestablished. Both require extra finance but should soon become the new norm.
A non tariff barrier is any impediment to trade that isn't a financial tariff. In a WTO, we become a third country & in practice, this means regulatory & phytosanitary checks of goods entering & exiting the EU. That means delays & that is not dismissed by waving a hand & making vague references to stockpiling. Once again, I'm compelled to note the damaging leave mindset in disregarding the enormous impact of the path those of us who depend on commerce to survive, which is everyone not enjoying a final salary pension incidentally, are being pushed down.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 10:28
  #3583 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


...but you didn’t use past tense it even present tense did you, you stated:

”if you're an expat permanently living abroad, seems you're going to be taking local driving lessons and test soon...”

which is incorrect,..Project Fear, Brexiter style.....
so,as before you are saying that there are no local licencing requirements 29th March ?

yes or no?

your attempt at transference is quite.....transparent

of course this could all have been dealt with @30 months ago ...but oh no ...let's behave like spoilt little children..the entire Brexit fiasco, and that is what it has become is because of people who refuse to acknowledge democracy from the top to the bottom.
And that is fine, but don't be too surprised when it turns round and kicks you in the proverbial nuts come next GE. .I hope that it doesn't come to that btw but the strength of betrayal on the ground as it were is growing daily..

Last edited by weemonkey; 28th Jan 2019 at 10:39.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 11:11
  #3584 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by weemonkey View Post


the only good news is actually bad news, especially if you're an expat permanently living abroad, seems you're going to be taking local driving lessons and test soon....AND YOU CAN LAY THAT FIRMLY AT REMAINER Mays FEET!
I would just like to point out that you're wrong on that point. I'm an expat permenantly living abroad. I will continue to drive on my Belgian driving license. In the worst case, the requirement for a local driving test will only apply to anybody who has not exchanged their driving license before March 29th.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 11:42
  #3585 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
A non tariff barrier is any impediment to trade that isn't a financial tariff. In a WTO, we become a third country & in practice, this means regulatory & phytosanitary checks of goods entering & exiting the EU. That means delays & that is not dismissed by waving a hand & making vague references to stockpiling. Once again, I'm compelled to note the damaging leave mindset in disregarding the enormous impact of the path those of us who depend on commerce to survive, which is everyone not enjoying a final salary pension incidentally, are being pushed down.
I’m not quite sure why you believe anyone with a final salary pension is not affected. I have a ‘final salary’ pension which, like many is currently in deficit from a funding perspective, and relies on the continued financial health of the sponsoring employer to bridge the funding gap. If that employer fails financially, so will the pension scheme and my pension will be seriously affected. It was something I considered before voting in favour of Brexit.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 11:50
  #3586 (permalink)  
 
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Then you've voted to make yourself poorer. That's your business & I'm sure you have what you believe to be noble reasons. What I object to is you forcing me & millions of others to accompany you.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 12:21
  #3587 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Then you've voted to make yourself poorer. That's your business & I'm sure you have what you believe to be noble reasons. What I object to is you forcing me & millions of others to accompany you.
I know, democracy is such a pain isn't it? I think it was our autocratic Turkish friend (Mr Erdogan) who was quoted as saying democracy was "like a bus" in that you ride it until you get where you want to go, and then get off it. Great description I thought.

Anyway, can we please wind the clock back to 1997 and let's re-run that GE. If I'd known then what I know now I would never have voted that damn Bliar bloke in. Oh wait, I didn't actually vote for him, but you get my drift?
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 12:24
  #3588 (permalink)  
 
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I did not see the programme referred to here, but I found this quite interesting.
." On BBC Question Time, a member of the audience in Winchester made a particularly pertinent point: The 52%-48% referendum result wouldn’t even be sufficient to change the constitution of your local golf club.
And it’s true. In most democratic clubs and institutions, a result of 52% to 48% wouldn't be enough to change their constitutions.Indeed, in democratic countries that hold referendums on important issues, a super majority would usually be required to effect major change. A result of 52%-48% wouldn’t cut it.Nor would only 37% of the electorate voting for change enable that change to take place.

▪ Why is 37% significant? Because that was the proportion of the electorate that voted for Brexit – a minority.

The majority of voters either voted for Remain or didn’t vote. In most democratic countries that hold referendums, those who don’t vote do count – they count as a vote for the status quo. Otherwise it would mean a minority dictating the future of a country.(And that’s exactly what’s happening with Brexit – a minority has been given power to decide that Britain will go ahead with Brexit, even though most of the UK didn’t specifically support Brexit. Indeed, two out of the four countries of our union of the United Kingdom specifically voted against it.) There seem to be many double standards with the 2016 referendum. ▪ Just 37% of the electorate were allowed to impose Brexit on Britain. And yet, only 37% of the members of UKIP, or the Labour or Tory parties, wouldn’t be sufficient to change their constitutions. ▪ Under UK law, just 37% of a trade union’s members wouldn’t be sufficient to call a strike.

▪ Just 37% of MPs wouldn't be sufficient to call for an early general election (two-thirds of all MPs are required for that).

As the wise woman in the QT audience said about the Brexit result:“That’s why we continue to want to talk about it, and that is why with all the extra information that people now have, that they didn’t have at the time, there are many people who would change their vote.”Panellist and ardent Brexiter, the LBC973 presenter Nick Ferrari, amazingly agreed with the woman in the audience that a result of 52% to 48% wouldn’t be enough to change the constitution of a golf club. “You’re right,” he said. But he then added that since the referendum, there had been a general election “and more than 80% of the electorate voted for parties that wanted to deliver Brexit.” It’s nonsense, of course, to conflate the referendum result with the 2017 general election. People didn’t specifically vote Tory or Labour in that election because they supported Brexit. For sure, most Labour voters and members don’t want Brexit, and many voted for Labour because they had had enough of Conservative rule.Furthermore, Theresa May only called a surprise, snap general election because she said she wanted to increase her majority to give her a “mandate” for her version of Brexit. Instead, she lost her majority entirely. Voters didn’t give her a “mandate” – but Mrs May has carried on with her Brexit plans as if the 2017 general election had never happened.What’s more, if in Mr Ferrari’s view, the referendum result wasn’t sufficient to change the constitution of a golf club, but the decision could be endorsed or reversed by a general election, then it means that the referendum result of 2016 is not set in stone.Brexit could be democratically undone, if that’s what voters want. And over 50 polls since the 2017 general election all show just that: the majority of UK voters don’t want Brexit. But the government, and the opposition, are not taking any notice. In golfing terms, they’ve whiffed it.

Maybe it would be better if your local golf club ran the country. It would be a darn sight more democratic than it is now. "
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 12:32
  #3589 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
?
​​​​​
'The only reason that we are in this state now is that the illegally funded Brexit campaign and certain wealthy politicians made promises of sweet exit deals with the EU that were plainly impossible to obtain.'
The ' only' reason? How can you say this when you can't know?

' The great majority of the UK's population, who did not vote to leave - especially those who were too young to vote but will be most affected - will just have to live with the consequences.'
Ok, let's not bother with elections anymore as it disenfranchises toddlers.
I voted remain, partly because I didnt like the company I might be keeping with leave. Reading this thread the same concern could be made about remain. Some will say anything to win the pub argument. Logic and facts need not apply.
It's not just this thread though is it? Look at some of our most prominent Remainers - that great democrat Lord Adonis, the author of austerity George Osborne and the utterly untrustworthy former PM Blair? None of those are great people that you'd just love to introduce the kids to are they? What they are is fine examples of the kinds of individuals that have prospered massively under the status quo and, understandably, had no appetite for change. It was people like those that helped me decide to vote Leave.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 13:03
  #3590 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
But as someone who has exchanged a U.K. licence for an EU27 one WTF would I know?
Will your EU27 licence be valid in the UK after 29th March?
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 13:06
  #3591 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
I know, democracy is such a pain isn't it? I think it was our autocratic Turkish friend (Mr Erdogan) who was quoted as saying democracy was "like a bus" in that you ride it until you get where you want to go, and then get off it. Great description I thought.

Anyway, can we please wind the clock back to 1997 and let's re-run that GE. If I'd known then what I know now I would never have voted that damn Bliar bloke in. Oh wait, I didn't actually vote for him, but you get my drift?
Bliar. How delightfully novel.

Must admit, it's instructive to see leavers fetishising the 2016 referendum, as if no further expression of political will is possible. You see in here, daily the same we're leaving in a month point made by the same handful of people over & over. It's almost as if you've lost any form of intellectual reasoning for this historic mistake & are forced to rely on a superannuated outcome that represented technical victory & certainly not a decisive one. Hey ho, around we go.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 13:13
  #3592 (permalink)  
 
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PP - I've absolutely no problem whatsoever with another EU referendum. ....In the year 2056
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 13:25
  #3593 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
PP - I've absolutely no problem whatsoever with another EU referendum. ....In the year 2056
Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
It's almost as if you've lost any form of intellectual reasoning for this historic mistake & are forced to rely on a superannuated outcome that represented technical victory & certainly not a decisive one. Hey ho, around we go.
QED. All you have is your bent referendum. You cannot make any case in logic for this or you would do so.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 14:00
  #3594 (permalink)  
 
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But can we rerun the 1997 GE as well then? Arguably his 10 years in power caused more generational damage to the global reputation of this country, the economy, and the makeup of our societal fabric than leaving the EU ever will. And, of course, the kick back is what's largely caused the destruction of the party he claimed to serve.

Now we know all of this please can the 13.5M people that voted for him please be given another chance to vote? Answer, No, because you cant "step back in time" and rewrite history. And for all its flaws, most of us recognise this and would probably choose not to. i didn't vote for him, I lost, but I got over it, life goes on. He could have been a great PM, just turned out my instincts were right and 13.5M others were wrong. And remember this was a parliamentary landslide so a lot of people thought he was the new messiah, but they were misled badly.

On the contrary the Brexit result was a lot closer to call, but it doesnt illegitimise it in any way whatsoever. Them are the rules and we all have to play by them. Let's just accept the result and move on. You never know, even you might be surprised by the boundless opportunity presented by Brexit
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 14:09
  #3595 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
But can we rerun the 1997 GE as well then?
Why yes we can, every five years or so. Now, how about that Russian tinged referendum of yours?


Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
You never know, even you might be surprised by the boundless opportunity presented by Brexit
Go on then, I'm all ears for this.

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Old 28th Jan 2019, 14:22
  #3596 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Why yes we can, every five years or so. Now, how about that Russian tinged referendum of yours?




Go on then, I'm all ears for this.
Right, of course, we voted Blair in again 4 years later (with another massive majority) didnt we? Then we did it AGAIN in 2005! How stupid are we? You just cant trust the average Joe can you? What we really need is a time travelling machine, a la the Doctor Who tardis. That way we can prevent all these false starts and just get it right first time (well, second time but you know what i mean).

Advantages of Brexit:
Ending FMoP
Not restricting our preferential trade to the slowest growing economies in the world
Not being subject to the ludicrousy of an EU army
Not being subject to ever greater political and fiscal integration
Not subsisidising other EU states and paying for their failure and economic mismanagement
Ending of jurisdiction of ECHR and ECJ
Not having to constantly fight our corner against the Franco/German axis
Ending the EU gravy train, and returning accountability to the UK

That enough for a 30-second brain dump?

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Old 28th Jan 2019, 14:33
  #3597 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Advantages of Brexit:
Ending FMoP - Diminution of rights & the worst reactionary spasm of the hard of thinking right, addressing a non existent problem.
Not restricting our preferential trade to the slowest growing economies in the world - 44% of all trade with EU, baby & bathwater
Not being subject to the ludicrousy of an EU army - Zzzzz.
Not being subject to ever greater political and fiscal integration - You should read up on our membership, since you clearly don't understand it.
Not subsisidising other EU states and paying for their failure and economic mismanagement - Zzzzzz
Ending of jurisdiction of ECHR and ECJ - We're already sovereign
Not having to constantly fight our corner against the Franco/German axis. Galaxy brain there, we'll get the upper hand by not intervening. WOWZ!!
Ending the EU gravy train, and returning accountability to the UK Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

That enough for a 30-second brain dump?
Dump is the word. Next time, try not to excrete twenty years of Daily Fail headlines on me.

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Old 28th Jan 2019, 14:38
  #3598 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Not the same thing at all. The rising generations will be able to vote to change the government in the next election, and again every five years or less.
Brexit is a once and forever move. If we ever wanted to reapply we will have lost our current concessions. And what would we have to do to persuade every one of the 27 to have us back?
No, it's a very different situation.
you seem very confident in your predictions of what "the rising generations" will vote for?

What makes you think that the EU will be in ANY state to refuse what the UK demands ??

You drown in negativity.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 14:39
  #3599 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Dump is the word. Next time, try not to excrete twenty years of Daily Fail headlines on me.
how about thirty then.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 14:44
  #3600 (permalink)  
 
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yes we get it, you want to remain and nothing that can be said will convince you otherwise.

And yes we know your not going to be happy once the UK is out, even when the works of economic fiction are proved wrong yet again.

The clock can't be turned back and now it doesn't matter if the UK stay's, goes or extends the damage has been done and can't be reversed.
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