Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 25th Jan 2019, 19:06
  #3461 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,966
There follows some investigation by Chris K B on Twitter
Investigation? You gotta be kiddin' me. All it shows is a failure to comprehend that not all democracies have the same electoral system as the UK and what the idea of a representative democracy is. And it shows a rather arrogant attitude to believe that the UK's electoral system is the only one that is fitting for a democracy. One could even argue that the UK's system of first past the post is the reason for the chaos the UK is currently expierencing.

Many European states, just like Belgium, follow the concept of proportional representation when it comes to elections. It means that there are much more parties in Parliament and hardly a parliament where one party has a majority. You will almost always have coalitions which some will argue is a good thing as views and positions and not as entrenched as in a two party parliament like in England & Wales. So representatives from smaller parties like Verhofstadt can hold senior positions in government and even head goverrnment if they are able to negotiate effectively. And it also means that even if you loose some votes in a election or even get "hammered", you will still be represented in Parliament, albeit in smaller numbers.

Now, for this drivel about "political groups" in the EP. Just like in any other parliament with numerous parties, MEPs set up parliamentary parties. You have MEPs with a conservative, liberal, green, nationalist, center-left, center-right etc. background as a result of their party membership back home. They form parliamentary parties accordingly and like in any other parliament, these parliamentary parties have a spokesperson elected by its peers. The EP is not different from any other parliament.

It is really difficult to understand why the very same people who find it perfeclty okay that, say, the people in the constituency of Maidenhead can only vote for the MP for Maidenhead and not for the whole UK apparently expect that the EP must mirror the election results in the UK and not the whole EU.

Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Sorry Parapunter but if this is as bad as it gets I'll take it...
Cambridge - fastest growing city in Europe
...and a city with 73,8 per cent of the vote for remain.
virginblue is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:01
  #3462 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: elstree
Posts: 13
Well apparently after 2+ years I still can't post links, but I thought this was interesting from Italy.

Google...… Reuters Italy PM raps France, Germany for hypocrisy on Europe
Flyingbadge is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:02
  #3463 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,899
Parapunter you’re still re-arguing the 2016 debate. What’s the point of restating ad nauseum that pro-leavers are wrong and stupid? I voted remain and this even grates with me. We have serious decisions to take and this hardly helps “avert catastrophe” as you put it earlier.
ShotOne is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:05
  #3464 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 2
Cambridge is a university town. It has been said that academics, students and scientists, whilst being frightfully bright, are prone to eccentricity, debauchery and political immaturity. That perhaps would explain why so many Tabs are Punters.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:42
  #3465 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Norfolk
Age: 63
Posts: 3
University cities were almost unanimously and hugely in favoir of remaining within the EU. Can it be any coincidence that a huge amount of university revenue is now generated from foreign students? Leaving the EU may well reduce the numbers coming from abroad to study in the UK because there will be no longer any guarantee that their newly acquired qualifications will be recognised reciprocally.

As for leaving the EU being damaging in general for the UK; while there will be various short term problems as new systems are introduced, in the longer term the UK will once more have the ability to negotiate and adjust terms and conditions of trade without the need to get agreement with multiple other partners. In other words the UK will have the ability to control and mitigate its' exposure to future world issues.

Remaining within the EU gives the semblance of a finacial security blanket but at the cost of being forced into line with 27 other nations whose national goals and financial aims may be significantly different from those of the UK. We could find ourselves sucked down into recession by a collapsing German economy or forced to bail out other EU nations to the detriment of our own economy and citizens. The difference here is that there is no option for independent action other than to leave the EU.

So the bottom line is that given the breakdown of relations between the EU and the UK, the only option left to us is to leave the EU, if not in two months, then at some time in the future. Staying or leaving will both be damaging to the UK economy with the only difference being when the financial hit occurs and how hard. A short term downturn on leaving now or a long term strangulation of the economy if we remain within the EU.

The British public made their choice, possibly not in full possession of all the facts, but all the evidence to date suggests that it was the right decision and one that the government must abide by or likely face serious civil unrest and the discreditation of all politicians for decades to come.
G0ULI is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:49
  #3466 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
Parapunter you’re still re-arguing the 2016 debate. What’s the point of restating ad nauseum that pro-leavers are wrong and stupid? I voted remain and this even grates with me. We have serious decisions to take and this hardly helps “avert catastrophe” as you put it earlier.
You're under no obligation to read or respond to anything anyone writes, least of all from me, As for serious decisions, I'm curious to understand how anything said here influences any decisions taken at Westminster.

Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Parapunter: Wait a minute. The post to which I referred said this:

And my comment to you referred to exactly this point. Cameron went to meet the EU, allegedly trying to get reforms and returned empty handed. Thus showing that attempts at reform from within have been tried and they failed.

Why allegedly? He went to Brussels & returned with two out of three of his stated aims achieved, The third, restricting FoM was unrealistic & could never have been agreed. Shot one moans I'm fighting the referendum over & over, I prefer to think I'm denying lazy anti European lies & half truths, peddled endlessly to the extent that they become reality for the credulous. If you don't like my responses, stick to facts & you'll get responses in kind, just as The Nip did, which incidentally, was predictably seized upon by every leaver going to punt yet more anti EU tropes.
Parapunter is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:58
  #3467 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
University cities were almost unanimously and hugely in favoir of remaining within the EU. Can it be any coincidence that a huge amount of university revenue is now generated from foreign students? Leaving the EU may well reduce the numbers coming from abroad to study in the UK because there will be no longer any guarantee that their newly acquired qualifications will be recognised reciprocally.
It's a good guess. Wrong though, I really, really hope you didn't use this random notion as the basis for your vote to leave...




https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u...ct-uk-economy/
Parapunter is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:25
  #3468 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 454
Interesting set of documents:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...u-with-no-deal

Last edited by Exrigger; 26th Jan 2019 at 08:27. Reason: apologies wrong link added
Exrigger is online now  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:47
  #3469 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 72
Posts: 688
Parapunter: Why 'allegedly'? Simple; Cameron was a politician and, in my view, part of the job description includes being less than straight. In Cameron's case, should he declare today is Saturday, I would immediately check a calendar!
He went to Brussels with 10 objectives, not 3.

He wanted to ban EU immigrants from receiving tax credits for 4 years. What he got was a graduated restriction spread over 4 years, allowing these people to start to receive benefits after 1 year.

He wanted to ban EU immigrants from receiving child benefit if their children are still living in their 'home' country. He got half a deal on this one with the agreement to apply this restriction only to new claims, not all claims as laid out in his 2015 manifesto.

He wanted the UK to be exempt from contributing to EU related bail outs. He pretty much got what he wanted there, although the French threw in a modifier in a bid to have the City of London's neck wound in.

He wanted the UK to opt out of the working time directive. Nothing happened there.

He wanted to address the EU's failure to control wasteful spending. What he got was a promise by the EU to implement the Better Regulation Agenda. Half a win there, I suppose.

He wanted an end to closer political union. What he got was recognition that the UK wouldn't be troubled by closer political union but other countries would not receive this concession. Half a win, I suppose.

He wanted greater powers for the UK with regard to anti-terrorism measures. He won that one.

He wanted recognition of a multi-currency EU. He got an agreement in mealy mouthed EU speak that stated the EU's objective was to be an economic and monetary union with the Euro as a currency, with a mention of not all members have the Euro as their currency. A curate's egg thing, that one.

He wanted the ability of national parliaments to block unwanted EU legislation. He got more mealy mouthed waffle from the EU that more or less addressed this issue but, as far as I know, has not been incorporated in EU law.

He wanted to crack down on sham marriages. What he got was a commitment by the EU to adopt a proposal to clamp down on abuse of free movement rules. I have no idea if the EU ever adopted this.

However, I seem to remember him returning from Brussels saying more or less "I didn't get what I wanted for the UK so, as promised, we will have a referendum on our continued membership", releasing that train from the station.

You say
If you don't like my responses, stick to facts
. My post in way was a reaction by me to your posts, it was my opinion on how I see things. Your response shows a degree of paranoia. Mind you, that too is only my opinion. Don't be so prickly when people express views that don't align with yours.

Last edited by KelvinD; 26th Jan 2019 at 14:12. Reason: to soothe Parapunter's fevered brow
KelvinD is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:55
  #3470 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
No way am I ploughing through that word thicket. Paragraphs lad, paragraphs.
Parapunter is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:57
  #3471 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: cheshire
Posts: 200
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
How is that in any way conflicting with their statement? On the contrary it supports it.
Brexit will increase the costs of maintaining or expanding the wings operation in the UK. Airbus are hoping for cash from the UK government/taxpayer to keep it here. Just like Honda, they want bribes to stay here. One more cost of Brexit

​​​​​​
What are you smoking Sallyann? Not everything relates to Brexit you know! In the big, wide world out there, in a multi-billion dollar, global industry (like aircraft manufacture) there's a LOT more at stake than a bit of extra form filling due to Brexit.

Airbus were clearly towing the party line with their recent intervention, whilst behind the scenes "business" continues as normal.....
andrewn is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:01
  #3472 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: cheshire
Posts: 200
Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Fully agree on a shameful democratic deficit in the machinery of the EU. Now, by leaving, having nothing more to do with it,how do you propose we reform it?
Who cares? once we've left why does it bother us?
andrewn is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:04
  #3473 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 454
An update of sorts reference ERASMUS+:
https://www.erasmusplus.org.uk/brexit-update

And a couple of explanations reference trading under WTO rules and those objections to the UK Schedule submissions, probably not considered as a reliable source:

https://www.explaintrade.com/blogs/2...-shouldnt-care

https://www.explaintrade.com/blogs/2...s-going-on-now
Exrigger is online now  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:04
  #3474 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: cheshire
Posts: 200
Originally Posted by virginblue View Post



...and a city with 73,8 per cent of the vote for remain.
Yep - kind of tells you everything you need to know about those that selfishly benefit from the current system and those that don't
andrewn is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:07
  #3475 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,173
G0ULI,

"​​​​​​As for leaving the EU being damaging in general for the UK; while there will be various short term problems as new systems are introduced....",

I am staggered at the naivety of leavers who spout this sort of thing. How do you class the likes of Airbus removing wing production from the UK, Ford shifting engine manufacture inside the EU, Sony and Panasonic removing their European headquarters from London to Amsterdam, BMW Mini, Bentley, JLR et al all saying a no deal would be "catastrophic for their profitability and operations" and lead to investment decisions changing from the UK to the EU for many if not all of our multi-national global manufacturers as a "..short term problem?"

And as for having the ability to "once more have the ability to negotiate and adjust terms and conditions of trade..." How on earth are we expecting to negotiate superior terms when we are replacing a potential market of 500 million consumers with one with 67 million consumers? WHERE is the advantage in that?

Last edited by pr00ne; 26th Jan 2019 at 10:24.
pr00ne is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:23
  #3476 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Who cares? once we've left why does it bother us?
I appreciate you do a reasonable amateur line in goading, yet still find this instructive of the average, parochial inward looking leaver. It never disappoints.

But I'll tell you why anyway. Your attitude pervades leave thinking all the way up to morons like Mark Francois & beyond, still fighting the second world war & you can see it on display daily, take for example, the backstop. We have Rees Mogg & pals openly dismissing very real concerns over a hard border in NI, suggesting a few Paddys lobbing bullets at each other isn't a big deal, while presumably forgetting the Irish will have, along with the other 26, a veto on any future trade deal we sign with the EU.

People who, like you, can't think beyond a Daily Mail headline will be responsible for all of our difficulties in the coming years, but as you say, who cares?
Parapunter is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:26
  #3477 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: cheshire
Posts: 200
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
G0ULI,

"​​​​​​As for leaving the EU being damaging in general for the UK; while there will be various short term problems as new systems are introduced....",

I am staggered at the naivety of leavers who spout this sort of thing. How do you class the likes of Airbus removing wing production from the UK, Ford shifting engine manufacture inside the EU, Sony and Panasonic removing their European headquarters from London to Amsterdam, BMW Mini, Bentley, JLR et al all saying a no deal would be "catastrophic for their profitability and operations" and lead to investment decisions changing from the UK to the EU for many if not all of our multi-national global manufacturers as a "..short term problem?"

And as for having the ability to "once more have the ability to negotiate and adjust terms and conditions of trade..." How on earth are we expecting to negotiate superior terms when we wre replacing a potential market of 500 million consumers with one with 67 million consumers? WHERE is the advantage in that?
proone - with due respect there's two sides to every story;

The Airbus story was clearly an establishment sponsored bung - and you know that. As the link above shows they were fishing for more bribes (sorry, funding) to EXPAND production only the day before!
All the others you mention continually adjust their commitments to different regions / countries based on a whole variety of factors that I've outlined many times before (principally the amount of bung offered, the tax regime and access to cheap labour). Brexit MAY be a consideration that MAY impact future investment decisions, but don't kid yourself that any of the recent announcements are Brexit driven.

As to "investment decisions changing from the UK to the EU", if you substitute EU for China or XYZ other unscrupulous developing country with an endless supply of cheap labour then I'll agree with you. But, again, it wont be anything at all to do with Brexit.
andrewn is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:29
  #3478 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
​​
And as for having the ability to "once more have the ability to negotiate and adjust terms and conditions of trade..." How on earth are we expecting to negotiate superior terms when we wre replacing a potential market of 500 million consumers with one with 67 million consumers? WHERE is the advantage in that?
But you are not allowing for our brilliant team of negotiators, and our government united in their efforts to get the best deals for Britain. How can we possibly fail?
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:29
  #3479 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: cheshire
Posts: 200
Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
I appreciate you do a reasonable amateur line in goading, yet still find this instructive of the average, parochial inward looking leaver. It never disappoints.
Well I was half serious! Why do we care? We tried to enact reform from within. We failed, and now we're leaving.

I suspect other EU member states will come to a similar conclusion as ourselves, unless the EU itself enacts the reforms required, quickly.
andrewn is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:35
  #3480 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 454
[COLOR=left=#333333]I am also surprised at the naivety of some who believe the terms like '[/COLOR][COLOR=left=#222222]catastrophic for their profitability and operations', 'its going to be a disaster', 'the economy is going to drop to a level equal to third world countries' and the 'economy is being driven of a cliff' as most don't know that and all those opinions are caveated by words such as could/might/it is possible, not one with the exception of some on here, have actually stated this will actually happen, and some obviously have not read some of those links I posted earlier.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=left=#333333]Also the ones shouting the loudest are those who in the main don’t have much of a business management presence in the UK and considering the amount of businesses in the UK, some of whom may be large but then so are a lot of the 5.7 million private sector businesses (2018 figures) in the UK and all we are hearing is about 5 or 6 that are voicing negative opinions, does that mean the others are preparing for exiting the EU and looking forward to freedom to trade around the world without the EU restrictions, or don’t they care.

Apologies for the formatting, I don't seem to be able to remove the colour tags[/COLOR]
Exrigger is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.