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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 15th Nov 2018, 10:09
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by papajuliet View Post
If we were to have a third referendum and it resulted in, say, 52% remain and 48% leave, would the remainers then agree to a fourth referendum ?
I think an important difference now relative to the last referendum is that voters actually have some idea about what "leaving" entails. A new vote would be based on a much more realistic idea about what is achievable. Much less Schrodinger's cake.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 10:25
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting
. Basic premise: The current deal is the best of a bad lot. Therefore brexiteers will not be able to support it because to do so would be to admit that they were responsible for the bad lot. Therefore they will cling to the claim that something better is possible, without ever telling anyone what that "something better" might be, because (of course) they will claim that creating the better "something else" is someone else's responsibility. The sole responsibility of the Brexit Elite is to heckle and tell ever bigger lies. Actually doing stuff and achieving anything is something they have no personal experience of.

PDR
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 11:20
  #303 (permalink)  
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" We are, by some measures, the 5th biggest economy in the world "

Erm, nope, albeit a wallow in nostalgia is par for many on JB.

We have been relegated to....No 6. ( as previously mentioned on here )
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 11:20
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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Some very worthy and thoughtful comments this morning, which mostly seem to amount to it would be better in many ways for the UK to remain within the EU. That is indeed true, except that is not what the British public voted for.

The EU's position has always been that preferential conditions of membership cannot be extended to individual member states. All member countries must be treated equally. Certain temporary arrangements can be made to assist member states, such as the Greek bail out, but all inequitable conditions must eventually be phased out, including the British rebate.

The easy option is to remain within the EU, using its protectionist policies to support a declining UK economy.

The hard option is to abandon EU membership and face the consequences. There will be a degree of disruption to trade and possibly supplies of certain products, but the demand will remain within the EU and the UK for cross border trade. Given that there is this demand, means will be found to satisfy it.

The EU has also made it quite clear that no serious negotiations could take place while the UK remained within the EU because the conditions of EU membership preclude member states from making imdividual deals inside or outside the EU.

Yes, there will be a period of adversity and chaos as the UK departs. There may be temporary shortages of certain products or services. Some people will be disadvantaged, but every indication is that in the longer term the UK will benefit. History shows that countries and economies grow faster after a period of adversity.

What the British public voted for was to leave the EU. Not make a deal beforehand, just leave and sort the details out once we were free and completely independent to do so, not constrained by EU edict.

Hard Brexit appears to be the most likely outcome, but in the longer term, that should be to the UK's benefit and it is what the majority of Brexit voters actually thought they were voting for.

It is easy to deride the wisdom of the crowd as being ill informed, however scientific studies have proved that such mass movements generally end up generating the best overall outcomes for a given population group. Failure to leave the EU, or a bad deal, are far worse options than a hard Brexit.

The next four months will certainly be interesting, the following four chaotic, but after that?
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 11:26
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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Oh well. That changes everything........
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:13
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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According to THIS we are 7th.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:22
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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TBH it doesn’t really matter whether we are 4th, 5th, 6th or whatever, we clearly don’t have the leverage over the EU27 some seem to appear to think we have...
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:22
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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It also begs the question as to whether it is the size of the economy or its performance which is the important characteristic. Cyril Smith was, for a very long time, the largest MP in the hpouse of commons, but it didn't make him successful and it didn't stop him abusing children. Brexiters trot out matras about the size of the british ecomony but I'd wager several kopecs that few of them have a clue how it is measured or what it actually means.

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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:25
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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‘ WE HAVENT LEFT YET’ ��. I am positive that you don’t need me to telll you, but a huge percentage of Remain predictions of doom were predicated on the VOTE ITSELF, not on leaving. You cannot possibly not have known that, yet you try to tell me that I misunderstood. Typical. This is why your side of the argument is making ZERO progress in trying to change minds.

Asky yourselves, what is it you’re trying to do? Prove to people that you are right? Or try to change their minds to agree with you? I only ask because insulting the other side will not ever make them agree with you and you will continue to languish in the minority. Yet, insults from remainers remain easy to find on these pages. Still, I don’t know why I should tell you this, as I’m perfectly happy with you being a minority!

Last edited by SET 18; 15th Nov 2018 at 12:44.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:35
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
TBH it doesn’t really matter whether we are 4th, 5th, 6th or whatever, we clearly don’t have the leverage over the EU27 some seem to appear to think we have...
Is it the case that we really don’t? Or just that we don’t know because we didn’t try and use that leverage?

Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
It also begs the question as to whether it is the size of the economy or its performance which is the important characteristic. Cyril Smith was, for a very long time, the largest MP in the hpouse of commons, but it didn't make him successful and it didn't stop him abusing children.
I’m almost lost for words. Drawing comparisons between the british economy and a morbidly obese child abuser? Really??
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:38
  #311 (permalink)  
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Time for a second referendum - which si the only way of resolving an issue which is not split on party lines and where 'the people' whose will must be obeyed on this occasion (but not on any others) must have an informed vote
And a third until we make the right decision.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:38
  #312 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Without an economy, what exactly do you have sovereignty over?

As for zero impact on other's opinions, that is the perfect example of a zealot sticking their fingers in their ears while the house burns down around them. Literally no amount of facts, events or even the evidence of your own eyes will convince you that anything other than the path of parochial nationalism is the light. It's laughable. Unless of course you're a baby boomer pensioner with a paid up mortgage & a decent pension in which case, you're alright Jack!
See? ‘without an economy’ there you go again! Coupled with an earlier comment about ‘dumping our biggest trade partner’ Neither of these are true Para. People trade; not politicians or countries. They (largely) will continue to after events unfold.

Do you own any products from outside the EU? Why did you buy those? How did you buy those? Could it be because you considered these to be the best products for the money asked? I bet it was. That’s because this is how EVERYONE trades. They will happily continue to trade with our huge economy long after we are independent of the EU. Wait and see.

We won’t have VAT laws or EASA FTLs to follow if we don’t consider it in our interests. Nor will we have to contribute to a club that ignores virtually all of our concerns in every sphere. We will no longer have to have anything to do with the EU’s fairy ‘Parliament’ I believe you are so frightened of leaving because you KNOW we will NEVER vote to rejoin. Zero chance. We will rejoin all the other nations of the World who wouldn’t join the EU for any bribes. Do you think an American, or a South Korean or an Australian would join the EU if they could? Not a chance. That’s what you’re up against...
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:41
  #313 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SET 18 View Post
‘ WE HAVENT LEFT YET’ ��. I am positive that you don’t need me to telll you, but a huge percentage of Remain predictions of doom were predicated on the VOTE ITSELF, not on leaving. You cannot posssibly not have known that, up yet you try to tell me that I misunderstood. Typical. This is why your side of the argument is making ZERO progress in trying to change minds.
No, they were not. The predictions were based on us leaving. Leaving without a deal, which is what is going to happen. You can delude yourself all you like, but the facts are in. Farage and his ilk told us we would get a great deal. Davis told us it would be the easiest negotiation ever. All wrong.
When we leave the EU, I hope to gods I'm wrong, but there is nothing in any of the evidence that says i will be.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:47
  #314 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
No, they were not. The predictions were based on us leaving. Leaving without a deal, which is what is going to happen. You can delude yourself all you like, but the facts are in. Farage and his ilk told us we would get a great deal. Davis told us it would be the easiest negotiation ever. All wrong.
When we leave the EU, I hope to gods I'm wrong, but there is nothing in any of the evidence that says i will be.
SET is set & no matter how much you ask them to look at the news, or the telly, nothing will change their mind. They are a true believer, so maybe save your breath?

As for no deal. I'm sceptical. May's farrago won't get through the commons, that much is clear. May might not get through the day but we'll see about that. However, I genuinely can't see MP's voting for no deal, they know how catastrophic that would be for the country & it's far too late now to renegotiate & get a workable arrangement with the EU with 146 days remaining on our subs. As far as I can see, we're remaining in some form of transition forever & a day.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:50
  #315 (permalink)  
 
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Oh dear. Mr Turin, Davis said it ‘SHOULD’ be the easiest deal in history. So it Should have. Both parties in complete alignment to separate. What’s difficult about starting there?

Again, a remainer (deliberately?) misquotes the the other side of the debate in order to try and support their own argument. Do you do this because you think or hope that I don’t know the quote? Please answer this specifically. I will find it very interesting to hear why you did that.
.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:51
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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‘Getting out of the EU can be quick & easy. The UK holds most of the cards’ - John Redwood.
‘There will be no downside to Brexit’ - David Davis.
‘The Free Trade Agreement that we will do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history’ - Liam Fox.

Over to you then.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:51
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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Rees-Mogg has handed in a letter of no confidence in the PM to the 1922 committee.

So it begins.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:54
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
No, they were not. The predictions were based on us leaving. Leaving without a deal, which is what is going to happen. You can delude yourself all you like, but the facts are in. Farage and his ilk told us we would get a great deal. Davis told us it would be the easiest negotiation ever. All wrong.
When we leave the EU, I hope to gods I'm wrong, but there is nothing in any of the evidence that says i will be.
Ok, so when was the ‘emergency budget ‘ going to happen? When were the 800k redundancies forecast for? At want point was the year-long recession supposed to start? A specific answer to those Pre-referendum claims would greatly support your point if you can show me that none of them were predicated on occurring after the vote.

Of course there are more too, but let’s see how you get on with these...
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:55
  #319 (permalink)  
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It seems JB's revered J.R-M has posed a not so rhetorical question.......saves waiting for the UK public to answer at the next, and getting decidedly closer than May 2022, GE.....

What better analogy therefore.....Music by "The Doors "...... in case any of our more venerable contributors are totally confused or bewildered as to this classic group.

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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:56
  #320 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
‘Getting out of the EU can be quick & easy. The UK holds most of the cards’ - John Redwood.
‘There will be no downside to Brexit’ - David Davis.
‘The Free Trade Agreement that we will do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history’ - Liam Fox.

Over to you then.
Over to me how? I don’t disagree with any of those quotes. Where are the holes in them?
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