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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:00
  #2921 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
'Something'. What exactly? What is the detailed, costed, agreed process that you, as a leaver, committing us to this future have put in place?

In no deal, you will see a pinch on supply no question. It cannot be any other way. However, Sally is right, Retailers are businesses, the market is substantial, there will be an uplift in airfeight. We produce about 25% of the produce we consume. 30% of the fruit we eat comes from Europe, the other 70% from the rest of the world. But 80% of vegetables come from Europe & particularly salad crops from Spain. If you up your RoW imports, then you can expect a pretty significant increase in cost as transport is priced in. If you voted leave, then in effect you have voted to make yourself and the other 48% of us poorer.
There was a business owner on BBC yesterday being questioned about Brexit. On being asked about the "uncertainty" it created, he responded that he has dealt with uncertainty for the last 30 years and Brexit didn't bother him. It sounded like he would have had a lot of interesting viewpoints to make, but as he was clearly going to speak positively about Brexit, the interviewer cut the piece short. Seems to be a theme - there have been several instances where businesses have been asked "does Brexit bother you" - those that answer No are not questioned anything like as much as those who say "Yes" Entirely in my view, based on what I watched. I tend to avoid the news - the seething hatred and bigotry from Remainers puts me off watching the news.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:08
  #2922 (permalink)  
 
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Lucky him.

On BBC2 last night in the new 7pm politics live prime time slot, seven times election loser & hail fellow, matey down the pub fascist Nigel Farage was given air time to expound on his vision of the new reich, so I guess it's swings & roundabouts on the interminable BBC bias debate.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:13
  #2923 (permalink)  
 
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It did the job exactly as they wanted.

It wasted time and locked her in post with no further attempts to get shot of her for a year. Or they had the potential to get someone more of thier choosing in. Knowing fine nearer the date when things escalate they might not have the same potential.

So it was win win.

Btw being abusive cures the concrete of leave supporters instead of drying it. Even after the Scottish ref and this one people haven't learned it produces the opposite effect to what they want.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:14
  #2924 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
I might add I do hope that poor lady has had her C section and something has been done so she doesn't have to go to the house today.

In my mind the fact she had to vote in person in a wheelchair putting her and her child's life at risk is xxxxing disgusting.
So now we can add gynaecology to your CV, after your expertise in finance and logistics.
For your information an elective CS is not an emergency, and can be moved a day if required. But of course you would have preferred her to stick to her womanly childbearing duties instead of meddling in politics.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:19
  #2925 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
It did the job exactly as they wanted.
Perfect example. It did the exact opposite but here you are again, in your alternative universe of facts. You've got some nerve lecturing people about hardening positions when each & every post you put up here is a complete stranger to the truth.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:22
  #2926 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Sat thinking about this over the early hours and decided the main problem, here and in the HoC, is that everyone is arguing past each over the wrong question, which is why the can’t reach a consensus.

You will note that the ongoing argument here is about trade, should be in the SM and/or a CU, moving freight etc. Just as the argument in the HoC is whether a Canada+++ or a Norway+ would be better than the present offering. But it’s never been about those issues - there are plenty of Youtube videos showing the leaders on both side during the last referendum agreeing out meaning leaving both the SM and CU, and there would doubtless be equal agreement in another referendum. Instead, as admirably demonstrated in the Ch4 drama last week, the out campaign identified “taking back control” as the critical message which won.

The has a been a growing unease amongst a growing proportion of the UK public an unease over the way the EU has been developing, and that has been echoed amongst many in the political classes since Maastricht, the Euro, the referenda over the proposed constitution and then the Lisbon treaty. It can also be seen by the recent proposals over centralising budgets, defence etc that the trend is continuing. There are doubtless many reasons behind it - different histories, napoleonic vs Common law legal systems, dirigistic vs capitalist systems etc - but it is there.

I don’t believe many of those who favour Brexit are against either a SM or CU, it is the implicit requirement to accept all the non-trade “ties that bind” that are attached as mandatory conditions and which are seen as one way doors which will lead, inevitably, to membership of a united Europe. Which is why, based on the previous assertions dating back to Ted Heath, that there is no intention to do so are not believed. Selling our birthright for a mess of pottage so to speak, and why the “backstop” excites such concern as yet another attempt to use trade to fundamentally interfere in the UK constitutional structure.

Based on the above I believe we, via the HoC, really need to decide what type of non-trade long term relationship we want and will accept with the EU. That decision to include the areas so often mentioned such as national sovereignty, legal independence etc. Are we happy with our present depth of integration? Would we want guarantees against further integration etc? Once there was agreement at that level, then clear guidelines would exist to signpost what could be negotiated away over any trade agreement.

Regardless, it should be accepted that our relationship with the EU has been irrevocably changed.

If I could go back two years, knowing what I know now, I might vote differently. Not that my views have changed, but I was expecting to lose and would have accepted the verdict, and seeming the divisions and discord that have ensued I am not sure it was worth the price. However, that is a genie that cannot be put back in the bottle, and the consequences must be borne.

Even if parliament decided to revoke A50 and stay in the EU the relationship would be vastly different. With the millions of angry Brexit voters denied their electoral choice, any government would have to take a far harsher line towards the EU and to veto any other their planned further moves to integration - even those that might be essential to stabilise the Euro for example. The UK would never be trusted again, even so far as it was before, and would not reclaim its previous range of agencies and posts. It is also inevitable that, under Farage or another, a new anti-EU party would emerge which other parties would have to emulate in part to maintain their voter base.

If instead an agreement is reached which ties the UK to the EU via the SM and CU and making payments and adhering to the 4 freedoms, but simultaneously losing representation in making laws and regulations whilst having to obey them, the antagonism would grow far faster and lead to an even quicker movement to leve such an arrangement - even if they include a backstop.

I am afraid I cannot see any destination which is not fraught.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:27
  #2927 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
You propose this on a 48 hour cycle. It's pointed out to you why it's a non starter, then you come back & propose it again ad infinitum. At some point, you are going to have to put a toe in the shallow end of the real world & accept that it's just not as warm as you hoped.

It's a decent illustration of Brexiteer logic you see everywhere. Vague ideas incapable of working in practice, punted over & over again until they gain currency with people credulous enough to accept anything said to them.
You are quite right, I just felt that a simple repetition was justified, not because I wish it so but because that is my opinion. I note I do not appear to be alone.

Then I heard on the BBC yesterday that billions is being spent by UK businesses building up materiel stocks in anticipation of supply chain interruption. Money that instead could have been used in investment. I made that point about 3 months ago. I guess it has increased now for two reasons: some businesses had held off because of uncertainty, and others as it was not necessary until now.

And in your final point, not just leavers ' logic, just logic.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:28
  #2928 (permalink)  
 
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With regard to Brexit, a large number of MP's are self serving and have acted in their own interests, not those of their constituents.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:31
  #2929 (permalink)  
 
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Time and time again things are deemed a success by one side and vice versa by the other.

Gina's court case being a perfect example.

The recent ecj case is also another. Which is why I gave some cash to them.

It didn't matter what the outcome was it put a spanner in the works. The result causes a load of issues for the entity that you want to stay with and allows significant damage to be done to their plans if it does cancel.

It's a chess game, timing of moves and sometimes sacrificing high value pieces to sucker the oppersite side into a line of thought while you set up for the end game is just part and parcel of playing a tatical game.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:41
  #2930 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
You are quite right, I just felt that a simple repetition was justified, not because I wish it so but because that is my opinion. I note I do not appear to be alone.

Then I heard on the BBC yesterday that billions is being spent by UK businesses building up materiel stocks in anticipation of supply chain interruption. Money that instead could have been used in investment. I made that point about 3 months ago. I guess it has increased now for two reasons: some businesses had held off because of uncertainty, and others as it was not necessary until now.

And in your final point, not just leavers ' logic, just logic.
To jog everyone's memory, you suggested waiving border controls as a means of alleviating the consequences of a policy decision. No country in the world does this.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:46
  #2931 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Echo Romeo View Post
With regard to Brexit, a large number of MP's are self serving and have acted in their own interests, not those of their constituents.
You're right there. A prime example is a certain Rees-Mogg
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/b...-jacob-1409498
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 10:49
  #2932 (permalink)  
 
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Orac that's my view as well.

If the EU was just the cm and cu and umbrella of standards then we wouldn't be in this situation today.

But to sort out demographic issues with certain members and economic ones with currency strength with a backbone of social balance policy they had to go for the superstate route. Which I might add also has a timelimit to complete before the demographic issues kick in. Having the UK about to prevent and veto progress in that direction will be extremely damaging.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 11:25
  #2933 (permalink)  
 
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With regard to Brexit, a large number of MP's are self serving and have acted in their own interests, not those of their constituents.
Needs correction:
With regard to Brexit, a large number of MP's are self serving and have acted in their own interests, not those of their constituents.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 11:41
  #2934 (permalink)  
 
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MPs almost always act in their own interests except when they get older and have past their peak.

Classic case Dominic Raab is a quitter and represents the biggest remain constituency in the country- do they not understand 'represent' well hes not Britiaha nyway so he probably doesnt.

The whole thing ahs been a shambles and humiliation for UK from start to fish and both parties are to blame.

I any rational world there would be no conservative or labour party after this debacle they should both be dissolved and forced to start again so we have a government of sensible centrists not stuck in the past overly PC Labour members or treacherous tax dodging Tories there ar decent competent people in both parties who should look to their common goals and isolate the extreme elements who cause this country so much harm never more so than today.

And as for TM the PM how stupid is she pressing ahead with her no hope solution -no wonder Corbyn called her a stupid woman. Personally until this week i felt sorry for her , stabbed in the back the evil element in her party, she should have gone into yesterday with a simple its my deal or another referendum , she would have had a better chance of winning and if she lost then it would be the fault of the extremists.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 11:47
  #2935 (permalink)  
 
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Back in 1983, when I was just into my teens my older sister (worked for the Labour party) took me to Dorking halls to watch the general election count (we were a fun family). We had a prominent Tory MP in Mole Valley at the time, Kenneth Baker, a labour candidate (very timid was my impression) and a liberal candidate (or was it SDP then?).

Ken Baker was puffing on a large cigar dominating the hall (think he was Thatchers Education Secretary at the time)... pure utter arrogance... all the Young Conservatives hovering around him treating him like the King, and the Labour candidate, my Sister and by extension I with disdain (ugly/nasty sneers)... celebrating victory before the count finished... at that time I made a mental note never to vote for the f-----s under any circumstances.

The moral of that story is all these years later it is of absolutely no surprise to me they got the country into this mess. Bet not much has changed, utterly arrogant and dismissive of others and a delusional self-belief.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 11:58
  #2936 (permalink)  
 
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For ever Ken Baker there's a Sarah Wollaston, or a Stella Creasy. It's an easy thing to write them off as snouts in the trough. The vast majority, I still believe are in it for the right reasons.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:20
  #2937 (permalink)  
 
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There is a possible course of action but the whinging would be collosal.

Personally I would have done it 6 months ago.

Just declare it will a no deal exit and put maximum effort putting things in place for it. Even if the EU comes back and says let's talk about this. Say fine we can talk post exit trade deals but that's it. But it will be minimal assets allocated for it.

If you want temporary transition agreements we can do that. But forget any handcuffs on the NI border or fishing etc.

At least then everyone knows what will happen in the remaining months and can do something productive instead of pissing around playing "chess" trying to force a temporary draw to the match.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:21
  #2938 (permalink)  
 
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Urgent help needed, a woman I know is moving house on thursday. Its a bit short notice, but she needs a lot of cardboard boxes and help shifting the contents of her house. She doesnt have a lot of time to prepare stuff for packing.

Any help appreciated.

If you know of a local removal service that can deliver boxes, the address is 10 Downing Street, London SW1A 2AA
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:30
  #2939 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Echo Romeo View Post
With regard to Brexit, a large number of MP's are self serving and have acted in their own interests, not those of their constituents.
Correct. Labour voted down the deal for no other reason as they are salivating - Ken Clarke style - at the thought of power. Corbyn's sole motivation is the Premiership. I'd be tempted to grant that. I mean, who's to worry about the permanent economic destruction of the North West of England for example - a Corbyn certainty.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:34
  #2940 (permalink)  
 
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Would you like to put money on that? Iíll put mine on her still being there Friday

But even IF Corbyns opportunism succeeds tonight and IF he gets the election he wants so badly and IF he wins (three huge IFís!) It still doesnít answer any Brexit questions.
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