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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 13th Jan 2019, 09:19
  #2741 (permalink)  
 
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Goods presenting at Dover do not have to suffer inbound delays, that is entirely under our control. Are all the goods entering UK on 29th March suddenly becoming contraband on the 30th? There is no difference at Dover from the open border from Ireland.
Of course we don't have to check anything, and as a result see reduction in VAT collection, salmonella infested chicken and swine pest infect pigs and pork meat happily rolling into the UK unchecked.

Fact is the UK doesn't want that, so there will be customs entries, there will beck checks on goods and vehicles, and there will be delays. Same goes for the EU on their side of the border(s). The NI / Eire border will inevitably suffer in the same way.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 09:37
  #2742 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Of course we don't have to check anything, and as a result see reduction in VAT collection, salmonella infested chicken and swine pest infect pigs and pork meat happily rolling into the UK unchecked.

Fact is the UK doesn't want that, so there will be customs entries, there will beck checks on goods and vehicles, and there will be delays. Same goes for the EU on their side of the border(s). The NI / Eire border will inevitably suffer in the same way.
Quite. Taking back control doesn't extend to keeping out drugs, pestilence & weapons for some.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 11:19
  #2743 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Of course we don't have to check anything, and as a result see reduction in VAT collection, salmonella infested chicken and swine pest infect pigs and pork meat happily rolling into the UK unchecked.
I fail to see how any of that could be different from the present.

Goods inward will be free of IVA/VAT. Entered into the UK market VAT will be applied as now. Why will it reduce?

Why will the EU import infested chicken and infected pigs? If the EU don't do it now why will they do it post Brexit?

If you are suggesting that other countries will now be free to export substandard foods to us what has changed? We either inspect it, as we are now, or refuse an import licence. There is no reason for the UK to abandon any extant rules.

I think in many respects our problem with the EU is that we don't publicise what the EU actually does for UK, OK they are spending our money and not always as central Government would wish.

As for many off these 'rules and regulations ' we are going to abandon, many are our own rules anyway.

I won't mention that Project but much of the doom is like that BBC programme 'Rip Off Britain '. In fact when the bits I have seen are really 'Ripped off Britons' one was friend of mine ripped off in Turkey.

OK, we lost, now, what are we doing to ensure success?
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 11:25
  #2744 (permalink)  
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It looks as though, no matter what happens with Maydeal, Corbyn will call a vote of no confidence in the present government. If he carries that then Britain will have a Labour government that is quite as confused as this Conservative one but whose internal and security policies are very different. If one is of the opinion that a Labour government would be catastrophic for Britain, at this stage of the Brexit proceedings anyway, then perhaps one should reflect on the likelihood that Labour would never have got even this far has the remainers put their shoulders to the wheel and made a success of the 2016 referendum. By remainers in this context one must include David Cameron, John Osborne, Teresa May and Phillip Hammond.
Indeed, while WWI might have done for the flower of British youth and WWII for the Empire, the Remainers have done for the country.
Or, just to provide a backstop, is that too far fetched a train of thought?
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 11:28
  #2745 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Of course we don't have to check anything, and as a result see reduction in VAT collection, salmonella infested chicken and swine pest infect pigs and pork meat happily rolling into the UK unchecked.

Fact is the UK doesn't want that, so there will be customs entries, there will beck checks on goods and vehicles, and there will be delays. Same goes for the EU on their side of the border(s). The NI / Eire border will inevitably suffer in the same way.
Are you suggesting that EU farmers happily produce “salmonella infested chicken and swine pest infect (sic) pigs and pork meat” for consumption in the UK?
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 11:34
  #2746 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
It looks as though, no matter what happens with Maydeal, Corbyn will call a vote of no confidence in the present government. If he carries that then Britain will have a Labour government that is quite as confused as this Conservative one but whose internal and security policies are very different. If one is of the opinion that a Labour government would be catastrophic for Britain, at this stage of the Brexit proceedings anyway, then perhaps one should reflect on the likelihood that Labour would never have got even this far has the remainers put their shoulders to the wheel and made a success of the 2016 referendum. By remainers in this context one must include David Cameron, John Osborne, Teresa May and Phillip Hammond.
Indeed, while WWI might have done for the flower of British youth and WWII for the Empire, the Remainers have done for the country.
Or, just to provide a backstop, is that too far fetched a train of thought?
It would be so very, very easy for TM to put her deal to the UK electorate and let them (us) decide in which direction we finally want to go. There may be a bit of discomfort politically for her but she could ride it out easily.

The fact that she so resolutely defends her deal as the only one possible and consistently rules out a second referendum leads to me to the inevitable conclusion - she was and always has been in favour of leaving despite her public utterances to the opposite.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 11:39
  #2747 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
the Remainers have done for the country.
So, the mess is not attributable to those who voted Leave but those who didn't vote Remain?
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 11:42
  #2748 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
The fact that she so resolutely defends her deal as the only one possible and consistently rules out a second referendum leads to me to the inevitable conclusion - she was and always has been in favour of leaving despite her public utterances to the opposite.
I think it’s more a case of TM having a closed mind on this and being ******stubborn...
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 12:36
  #2749 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
I think it’s more a case of TM having a closed mind on this and being ******stubborn...
I think that she is firmly stuck in look-what-you-made-me-do toddler-tantrum mode.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:09
  #2750 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
So, the mess is not attributable to those who voted Leave but those who didn't vote Remain?
It seems that some here are blaming everyone for the mess we are in except those who actually started it.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:15
  #2751 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It seems that some here are blaming everyone for the mess we are in except those who actually started it.
Cameron started it.

By miscalculating the 2015 general election outcome. He expected that the coalition would continue, that the LibDems would refuse to let him have the referendum, and that he could then say to his right wingers (as he had done so many times in the previous five years) "aw, shucks, look, I did try, but those nasty LibDems won't let me". That was the plan, but it was somewhat blown out of the water by winning an outright majority.

Compare and contrast May, whose plan was blown out of the water by failing to win an outright majority. Recent Tory PMs have not been very good at the delivering-on-their-plans bit.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:16
  #2752 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
So, the mess is not attributable to those who voted Leave but those who didn't vote Remain?
I believe that is what he said and what he meant. Had Cameron et al properly assessed the problem they would have informed the electorate of the benefits of membership and not the fear of leaving. OTOH the leavers concentrated on the benefits of leaving. This tack/attack put the remainers on the defensive from the word go.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:19
  #2753 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Speaker..

The implications of what Berco is doing go way beyond Brexit.
It basically means the UK is ungovernable if he abandons the conventions that have given us stable government for the last 100 years.

A self obsessed complete wr.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:21
  #2754 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
OTOH the leavers concentrated on the benefits of leaving.
But there weren't any.

And it is still the case that none has been identified.

Apart from the one I've spotted:

"The collapse in the sales of new cars gives health benefits to those who have to walk and cycle because they can no longer afford a car, and reduced congestion to those who still can afford a car, and reduced pollution. A win all round."

But not everybody agrees with this, astonishingly. In particular it seems that poorer petrolheads who are too lazy to walk or cycle don't agree with it.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:34
  #2755 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by weemonkey View Post
The implications of what Berco is doing go way beyond Brexit.
It basically means the UK is ungovernable if he abandons the conventions that have given us stable government for the last 100 years.

A self obsessed complete wr.
Charming as ever. The executive draws its power form Parliament. The speaker has given Parliament back its voice. You should, as a committed believer in Parliamentary sovereignty be applauding that to the rafters. Instead, you seem unable to rise above parochial concerns. Leavers in a nutshell, all for the UK running its own affairs but only when it suits them. A plague on their houses.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:42
  #2756 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It seems that some here are blaming everyone for the mess we are in except those who actually started it.
Absolutely correct.
Goodness there is some rubbish written and spoken about this devisive subject.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:51
  #2757 (permalink)  
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In one sense, there's a lighter side to the farce now unfolding daily.....not even the scriptwriters of "The Thick of It " let alone "Yes Minister " could have dreamed up such a plot line...in that this event had been cancelled.

Alternatively, it shows the damage a hard core of extreme right thugs can do..... with comparatively little effort.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-bad-feeling
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 14:07
  #2758 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by weemonkey View Post
The implications of what Berco is doing go way beyond Brexit.
It basically means the UK is ungovernable if he abandons the conventions that have given us stable government for the last 100 years.
Gosh there really are some people who can't cope with the reality of parliament "taking back control", aren't there.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 14:31
  #2759 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Charming as ever. The executive draws its power form Parliament. The speaker has given Parliament back its voice. You should, as a committed believer in Parliamentary sovereignty be applauding that to the rafters. Instead, you seem unable to rise above parochial concerns. Leavers in a nutshell, all for the UK running its own affairs but only when it suits them. A plague on their houses.
I think youre being a little unfair. Surely the fact of the matter is that some (much?) of the business of Parliament is governed by precedent and that the controversial amendment allowed by Bercow defied well established precedent. I don’t think anyone here would dispute that Bercow ignored the advice of his professional advisors and the claim that he did so in order to pursue a personal goal is surely a reasonable one. He claims that to follow precedent would effectively mean that Parliament would always be bound by past rulings and no progress could be made in the future on anything.

Precedent gives guidance, stability in the event of contention if you will.

How could those areas of English law currently incorporating precedent be conducted if the stability that function provides was removed, or even worse, made up on the hoof and contrary to previous rulings. Anarchy in the courts would be the answer.

Last edited by yellowtriumph; 13th Jan 2019 at 14:45.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 14:37
  #2760 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It seems that some here are blaming everyone for the mess we are in except those who actually started it.
In my opinion ‘those who actually started it’ would be Tony Blair who singularly failed to carry through on his promise (twice I believe) to hold a referendum on the EU in the early part of the Millenium on the Lisbon treaty. Had he had followed through on his promise we would have had a better idea of any referendum of membership of the EU in 2016. Pity I think as it would have been illuminating to the EU/UK as a whole as to our national mood towards the EU at that time.
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