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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 10th Jan 2019, 19:38
  #2681 (permalink)  
 
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You are the angriest Dundonian I've ever met & it's a crowded field.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 19:41
  #2682 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
I was also led to believe that existing 'contracts/educational courses' stayed as before even if the completion date was after the UK had left..
I think the phrase is “real politik” or similar....legality or not some academic institutions are certainly looking ahead at, say, funding of a PhD student and saying, “you know what, we don’t know if you will actually be able to be here in 2-3 years, why should we fund you etc”....

I’ll add there is very much a disconnect between what HMG are putting out for consumption in the U.K. (which seems to be “working/living in the EU 27 will be fine”) verses what the embassy staff (Foreign Office?) are starting to say in the travelling road shows they are doing to major cities, where they telling expats to ensure that they have made every effort possible to register with national/local authorities to ensure continued rights to at least reside long term, as to working.....they certainly won’t commit themselves...I suspect they don’t have a scooby do...not their fault..but locally I am hearing more and more stories along the lines of the one Gertrude offered a few minutes ago about the advantages of an Irish passport.

(we checked..to be sure be sure.....not an option...)




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Old 10th Jan 2019, 20:25
  #2683 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=Exrigger;10357183]I would expect nothing less, however if it turns out to be a good decision, can I be afforded the same courtesy should the occasion

i will be more than happy to offer you a fast and fulsome apology should things all turn out tickety boo. I'm not expecting to have to through. I just don't see the point in rocking a stable boat.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 20:49
  #2684 (permalink)  
 
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I'm desperate to be wrong. Please make it so.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 21:22
  #2685 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
You are the angriest Dundonian I've ever met & it's a crowded field.
Dodgy thing throwing labels about..

Ask Ms Sturgeon and her advisors.

https://glasgowunihumanrights.******...mond-says.html

Last edited by weemonkey; 10th Jan 2019 at 21:25. Reason: shame- one of the straightest scots political commentaries that
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 22:04
  #2686 (permalink)  
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(The consequent shambles is down to the totally inept Negotiation Team and the totally inept Government who are still displaying absolutely no signs of leadership.)

Steered inexorably from behind the scenes, since July 2016, by the arch Remainer Oliver Robbins.

The government has done an appallingly shabby job all round. UKIP would have been an improvement of course.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 23:05
  #2687 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
But Brexit will happen, and will fail miserably. That's the fact for history to reflect. Doubtless though the Brexiteers will blame the Remainers and the EU for its failure anyway. In fact they seem to be preparing for it already.
No, it's not the fault of either the remainers or the brexiteers that voted, the fault is plain and simply down to Westminster and their power crazed antics in putting themselves above democracy, ie the will of the people and getting on with the task that has been put to them to carry out. They are employed as representatives of the people, to carry out the will of the people, NOT their own agendas.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 23:14
  #2688 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
I still fail to see why you and others know this as a fact, you have no idea whether it will, or not be a failure, it is just your personal opinion based on your fears and outlook on the future, but cannot be based on historical precedents, and even if you look back at past economic disasters the UK has survived and thrived and not due to the EU, so why cannot they now. or are we now a nation of defeatists who are unable to make economic decision without the EU support structure.
I remember the doom and gloom brigade when the two Germany's reformed and the East will bankrupt West Germany argument.... and look where they are now. life will move on, not saying there will be some turmoil, but I strongly believe the UK will grow post Brexit, hard or not.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 23:23
  #2689 (permalink)  
 
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I am not at all sure that is a reasonable comparison. To begin with both halves of the reunited Germany were keen to make it work and were fully committed to that aim. It's not as if trucks were going to be queuing up at border posts or there were obstructions to trade deals between the two halves. As I said in a post above I will be extremely happy if things all go swimmingly but I have grave suspicions that they won't
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 23:34
  #2690 (permalink)  
 
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An interesting opinion poll in The Yorkshire Post yesterday. In a sample of 2000 it was found that Labour support since the 2017 GE had fallen from 49% to 35% as a result of Remain supporting voters deserting to the LD's and Greens. I would suggest that the majority of those have gone to the LD's which would mean a doubling of their support. Corbyn needs to be very careful. If he goes into an election supporting Brexit I think he may get wiped out.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 23:36
  #2691 (permalink)  
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The Germans pay a solidarity charge of 5.5% that kicks in at a joint income for a married couple of about £1,000. Its application is incremental but by the time you're paying £10,000 income tax, you'll be paying another £550 in solidarity charges. This was was started in 1991 and is still going strong. It must have raised billions of euros. I don't think that this would go down to well south of the Scottish border where by far the largest proportion of more affluent tax payers reside, as indeed they did and still do, in what was West Germany.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 23:39
  #2692 (permalink)  
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Remainers going over to the Lib Dems won't make a lot of difference to Corbyn. The LD is one political party that has always been very happy to jump into bed with the best deal in town, even without an exit strategy.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 00:24
  #2693 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
Attempting to overturn a democratic vote will mean the rise of extreme parties. Whats going to happen if the vote is overturned? do you think leavers will just accept it or do you think there may be a tiny chance of a backlash. Teresa May gone and a Eurosceptic leader of the Tory party puts leaving in their manifesto for the next general election and wins a majority. we may win this battle but we wont win the war. We also get a more right wing Tory Govt that would continue to wreck the country for 5 more years.

Better to do it properly play the long game and win in the end.
An unusual display of maturity.

Being an old fart, I have lived as an adult through all the political regimes from Anthony Eden onward (excepting that of Tony Blair when I was abroad) and during this time witnessed many political issues exercising the nation and generating heated argument. But I have never known an issue which created such vehemently hostile reactions to both the government of the day and the protagonists involved and as has been the case with Brexit. And by protagonists, I mean those who fulfilled their civic duty and voted; I attach no value to the views expressed by those who lacked the mental fibre to so engage.

The Brexit question is the most important matter to be put to the electorate since WW2, more important in my view than the Treaty of Accession of 1972. The issue incorporates who we have been, who we (think) we are and, most significantly, who we wish to be. Naturally, there are myriad opinions and philosophies encompassed within the notion of Brexit and to accommodate them all clearly is an impossibility. However, Brexit is not just another political milestone in the succession of those past; Brexit is unique in that, as far as I know, it is the only one which so blatantly disregards the outcome of a legitimate political process and unashamedly seeks to thwart the democratically expressed will of the electorate.

Along with the majority of the voting electorate, I sided with the Leave faction. Despite all the "sound and fury" of the Remainers, I am as convinced of the rightness of my position as I was a couple of years ago - even more so in view of the behaviour of the EU in the meantime. Win or lose, as Danny G observes, we live (or used to live) in a democracy where it has been the convention for the majority to be allowed - and indeed, facilitated - to proceed on their declared path. Since the rat Gove allowed his personal ambition to divert attention and enable the Tories to enthrone the established mediocrity which is the Maybot, the initiative which was the Levers' by right, has passed to the opposition. The combined forces of the establishment and individual elites has sought to neutralise the referendum decision and it is increasingly becoming clear that the Remainers will carry the day. The present fudge by Mrs May and her dysfunctional so-called government is nothing more than pathetic and humiliating capitulation - worse than that of France in 1940 since in our case, the Germans are still in Berlin - and it would not be inappropriate if, as has been suggested, we sign away our nationhood in a railway carriage in Compiegne.

Those who believe that the EU and the British establishment between them have crushed the Independence Revolution of 2016 surely are correct. Opponents of a genuine Brexit are likely to get their way, yet sometimes in life you have to recognise when you are defeated - something the Remainers never learnt - but brace yourselves for the backlash.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 04:51
  #2694 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
An unusual display of maturity.

Being an old fart, I have lived as an adult through all the political regimes from Anthony Eden onward (excepting that of Tony Blair when I was abroad) and during this time witnessed many political issues exercising the nation and generating heated argument. But I have never known an issue which created such vehemently hostile reactions to both the government of the day and the protagonists involved and as has been the case with Brexit. And by protagonists, I mean those who fulfilled their civic duty and voted; I attach no value to the views expressed by those who lacked the mental fibre to so engage.

The Brexit question is the most important matter to be put to the electorate since WW2, more important in my view than the Treaty of Accession of 1972. The issue incorporates who we have been, who we (think) we are and, most significantly, who we wish to be. Naturally, there are myriad opinions and philosophies encompassed within the notion of Brexit and to accommodate them all clearly is an impossibility. However, Brexit is not just another political milestone in the succession of those past; Brexit is unique in that, as far as I know, it is the only one which so blatantly disregards the outcome of a legitimate political process and unashamedly seeks to thwart the democratically expressed will of the electorate.

Along with the majority of the voting electorate, I sided with the Leave faction. Despite all the "sound and fury" of the Remainers, I am as convinced of the rightness of my position as I was a couple of years ago - even more so in view of the behaviour of the EU in the meantime. Win or lose, as Danny G observes, we live (or used to live) in a democracy where it has been the convention for the majority to be allowed - and indeed, facilitated - to proceed on their declared path. Since the rat Gove allowed his personal ambition to divert attention and enable the Tories to enthrone the established mediocrity which is the Maybot, the initiative which was the Levers' by right, has passed to the opposition. The combined forces of the establishment and individual elites has sought to neutralise the referendum decision and it is increasingly becoming clear that the Remainers will carry the day. The present fudge by Mrs May and her dysfunctional so-called government is nothing more than pathetic and humiliating capitulation - worse than that of France in 1940 since in our case, the Germans are still in Berlin - and it would not be inappropriate if, as has been suggested, we sign away our nationhood in a railway carriage in Compiegne.

Those who believe that the EU and the British establishment between them have crushed the Independence Revolution of 2016 surely are correct. Opponents of a genuine Brexit are likely to get their way, yet sometimes in life you have to recognise when you are defeated - something the Remainers never learnt - but brace yourselves for the backlash.
Well I think it's fair to say, the above represents every polemicists dream......until you got to the bit about Gove that is because despite his duplicity he's only a side act albeit an invasive one when it suits his personal agenda.

However, it's the underlined above that is really, well, striking. There have been many comparisons, like " train wrecks " "car crashes " "driving and jumping off a cliff " but thus far nothing as surreal or disparate as your own analogy......there again, many will be impressed because once again Germany gets mentioned in suitably jingoistic British style.

Here's Steve Bell depicting an issue the JB EUcogniscenti have, not for the first time, conveniently ignored.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...orkers-cartoon
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 06:48
  #2695 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
The Germans pay a solidarity charge of 5.5% that kicks in at a joint income for a married couple of about £1,000. Its application is incremental but by the time you're paying £10,000 income tax, you'll be paying another £550 in solidarity charges. This was was started in 1991 and is still going strong. It must have raised billions of euros. I don't think that this would go down to well south of the Scottish border where by far the largest proportion of more affluent tax payers reside, as indeed they did and still do, in what was West Germany.
Yepp, it was promised that we pay the so called „Soli“ just for a couple of years. But hey, we still pay a tax on champagne and prosecco which was introduced 1902 to finance the emperors fleet.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 08:13
  #2696 (permalink)  
 
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Pitt the younger brought in income tax in 1798 to buy a few muskets for the Napoleonic wars. I must look that up, see how we're getting on, a few on here are still fighting that one!
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 08:33
  #2697 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
I remember the doom and gloom brigade when the two Germany's reformed and the East will bankrupt West Germany argument.... and look where they are now. life will move on, not saying there will be some turmoil, but I strongly believe the UK will grow post Brexit, hard or not.
That's the rub though, the soli "unification tax" is still going strong.

28 yrs after the wall came down.

Think about that.

"Nicknamed "Soli," the surcharge levies an additional 5.5 percent income tax after a certain level of earnings. In 2016, its revenue totaled almost €17 billion ($19.7 billion). Polls indicate that up to 80 percent of Germans feel they've been paid enough to this end and want the three-party coalition government currently being negotiated in Berlin to scrap the levy.

Most Germans believe that the money from the Soli is channeled directly into economic support for eastern Germany, but things aren't that simple. These revenues actually flow into the general government budget. Meanwhile, the government has doled out aid to the East but through a two-part program called the Solidarity Pact. Since 2011, the Soli has taken in more money than the pact has paid out. That's one reason critics say the surcharge should go.

"The people think that they pay the [Soli] supplement particularly to help eastern Germany, but we now know that these two things, technically, aren't connected," Association of Taxpayers President Reiner Holznagel told Deutsche Welle. He says that more than a quarter of a century after German reunification, the government should "keep its word" that the surcharge would only apply as long as necessary. But it remains debatable whether the Soli has achieved its main goal."


Ref.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/germ...ification-tax/
https://www.dw.com/en/taxpayers-dema...omy/a-41315805
https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/o...DITe3y2dBS-ap3
https://ideas.repec.org/p/zbw/cegedp/230.html

It shows how the German politicians [and one in particular] can still manipulate the population by appealing to the old, old ein volk syndrome.

Last edited by weemonkey; 11th Jan 2019 at 08:36. Reason: Damn beaten to it!
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 08:38
  #2698 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Well I think it's fair to say, the above represents every polemicists dream......until you got to the bit about Gove that is because despite his duplicity he's only a side act albeit an invasive one when it suits his personal agenda.

However, it's the underlined above that is really, well, striking. There have been many comparisons, like " train wrecks " "car crashes " "driving and jumping off a cliff " but thus far nothing as surreal or disparate as your own analogy......there again, many will be impressed because once again Germany gets mentioned in suitably jingoistic British style.

Here's Steve Bell depicting an issue the JB EUcogniscenti have, not for the first time, conveniently ignored.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...orkers-cartoon
So you have no belief in democracy, and the simple act of convincing others by debate.

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Old 11th Jan 2019, 08:49
  #2699 (permalink)  
 
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With respect, your record of constructive debate here is not exactly unimpeachable itself. If it's debate you want, then let's do it. GQ's windy verbiage is as polemical as they come, taking in the great war, glossing over an advisory referendum, indulging in name calling, blaming unspecified (as usual) elites & dismissing the concerns of half the country while seeking to diminish the well established consequences of crashing out of the EU with no deal all the while, not betting with his own future.

Leave are losing the argument because the argument is now understood in ways it wasn't two years ago. That is debate my friend.
Sticking to outdated beliefs is what got Rome in so much trouble over the years, I shouldn't be so keen to do it if I were you. Nonetheless, you won, we are leaving in March, so try to get over it would you?
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 09:24
  #2700 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Those who believe that the EU and the British establishment between them have crushed the Independence Revolution of 2016 surely are correct. Opponents of a genuine Brexit are likely to get their way, yet sometimes in life you have to recognise when you are defeated - something the Remainers never learnt - but brace yourselves for the backlash.
As a convinced Remainer who has always reluctantly accepted the decision to leave the EU, I'd like you to explain a couple of things you said there.

Firstly what do you mean by a 'genuine' Brexit?
Secondly how do you blame the EU for 'crushing' Brexit? They have done nothing more nor less than maintaining their fundamental, binding, position that the four freedoms are indivisible.
It was those in the UK promoting Brexit who promised that we could get a special deal with the EU, in the face of repeated EU statements that there could never be any such thing. As for the UK government, their mistake was to continue the farce of negotiations that could never succeed. It was clear from the start that there could never be a satisfactory deal over Brexit, and many of us said so.

The EU refused to give us any further special deals when Cameron tried, because it would break their charters. All they have done since is to maintain that very clear position. They have not 'crushed' Brexit.

The only people responsible for disappointment over Brexit are those who promised it would be different.
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