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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 9th Jan 2019, 14:55
  #2601 (permalink)  
 
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We also know vote leave used the same crooked data firms to target voters as Leave.Eu. We also know Vote Leave gave Darren Grimes (Who?) 625k a few days before the referendum but in actual fact sent that cash directly to Aggregate IQ, breaching spending rules in the process. However, the main point is despite all that in the public domain, it does not follow in logic that If Putin bought the leave vote, the leave campaign automatically wins the referendum.
Funny that you cant prove that Putin bought the election then isnt it. Do you deny that remain spent more overall on the referendum than leave? Did you think it unfair that every main political party campaigned for remain? Do you think it unfair thar remain used this to get influential figures like the President of the USA, the IMF and quite a few others to back their campaign.
Putin must be a genius then to have won against all that.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 15:11
  #2602 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
Funny that you cant prove that Putin bought the election then isnt it. Do you deny that remain spent more overall on the referendum than leave? Did you think it unfair that every main political party campaigned for remain? Do you think it unfair thar remain used this to get influential figures like the President of the USA, the IMF and quite a few others to back their campaign.
Putin must be a genius then to have won against all that.
I'm going to ignore questions 2-35 as they're an entirely different, why does the world hate us kind of discussion. What I will say is (unless you do actually mean the election, which really would be a thing) I have claimed repeatedly & unlike others, with a hefty level of documented evidence that Arron Banks has been invited on several occasions, including by parliament to reveal the source of his 8m donations to Leave.Eu. He has failed to do that, has lied about high level contacts with the Russian ambassador, has been shown to have been offered preferential investments in Russian gold mines, falsely claimed at one stage to have funded donations from African diamond mines which were subsequently shown to be closed & has generally been discursive & obstructive before people who ask all the right questions.

It is a fair guess that Russia is the source of his funds. It's well known those funds were deployed to mine data & target swing voters. Swing voters win referendums, the referendum was won by 3.8% Can you see yet why this is a difficult issue for leave supporters? It walks like a duck, sounds like a duck & quacks like a duck and it's still unfolding. The story is far from told. But if the story turns out as I have described it, then it would be (and I'm being nice here) a bit of a shame if leave changed the course of British history based on criminal theft & foreign money.

Finally, I would go further & suggest that if the knee jerk response to lengthy illustrations of circumstantial prima facie Russian involvement in the United Kingdom's democratic process is anything other than the expression of horror and please tell me more, then where exactly does ones loyalties as a subject of Her Majesty lie? Can you in those circumstances describe yourself as a patriotic Englishman/woman? Since you can pick your friends, I would suggest it's an issue you should consider carefully. I see people every day on the leave side who are so blinded by irrational hatred of Europe that they are prepared to overlook practically anything from criminal activity to economic privations in pursuit of their agenda & that is not just unreasonable, it's frightening.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 16:00
  #2603 (permalink)  
 
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hatred of Europe
I don't know any brexiteers who hate Europe, its the EU they are not keen on.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 16:06
  #2604 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
I don't know any brexiteers who hate Europe, its the EU they are not keen on.
I agree. I voted remain and am ashamed at the extent that some of my fellow remainers are going to in their attempt to deny they lost. Its always someone elses fault. Its either leavers are thick, racist they hate Europe or Putin bought it.

We lost, get over it and move on there are far more important things going on in this country at the moment.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 16:28
  #2605 (permalink)  
 
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There are no reasons whatever for not havign a second referendum

the first was involved with election fraud-
Possible Russian involvement
No one on either side knew a fraction as much about the Eu as they do now
We have term limited parliaments and all kinds of things to prevent a one vote changes everything for ever scenario -the only reason there is not a second referendum is that the quitters know they will lose otherwise they would have a second vote to shut up all the complaining and undermining which will never cease whatever happens.
And what about the poster who wrote that if the Russians were involved so would Corbyn and the Labour party - its 2019 the Russians are not communists anymore, if anything they are to the right of the Tory Right,
All the stayers want is for Britain to thrive in a complicated dangerous world - most leavers want the same but the people orchestrating leave want a very different arrangement-they want the restoration of wealth and privileged no nasty enquiries into rich people with their money in Bermuda , no complex environmental protection no customer protection legislation, no employment rights to restore it to the days when it was great brritain where 2% of people lived in immense luxury and the rest in squalor.
And if people think staying is unpatriotic remember 'My country right or wrong' gets you Hitler or maybe these days Putin.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 17:19
  #2606 (permalink)  
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For those who feel Anna Soubry should be forced to wear sackcloth and ashes, "how dare she be a credit to politics ! ", here's one of the charming examples of extreme right wing putrescence she's had to contend with.

Feel free to explain why, therefore, she continues to attract unwarranted condemnation when, in fact, she's conducted herself with remarkable composure whilst also retaining her principles.

Of course, there may well be those who tacitly agree with this glowing example of patriotic fervour's sentiments, but clearly, we will never be privy to their thoughts.....other than by reading between the less than subtle lines on many posts that is.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...emoved-from-uk
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 17:30
  #2607 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
But even if it is illegal under UK law after he 29th of March it doesn't matter anyway because the UK will be default exit anyway.
"'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished".
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 19:09
  #2608 (permalink)  
 
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Nice to hear Krystal is upset at Anna Soubry being called a fascist. Pity hes never been able to condemn Momentum for using identical language and intimidation against pretty much anyone who disagrees with them.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 19:19
  #2609 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
There are no reasons whatever for not havign a second referendum

the first was involved with election fraud-
Possible Russian involvement
No one on either side knew a fraction as much about the Eu as they do now
We have term limited parliaments and all kinds of things to prevent a one vote changes everything for ever scenario -the only reason there is not a second referendum is that the quitters know they will lose otherwise they would have a second vote to shut up all the complaining and undermining which will never cease whatever happens.
And what about the poster who wrote that if the Russians were involved so would Corbyn and the Labour party - its 2019 the Russians are not communists anymore, if anything they are to the right of the Tory Right,
All the stayers want is for Britain to thrive in a complicated dangerous world - most leavers want the same but the people orchestrating leave want a very different arrangement-they want the restoration of wealth and privileged no nasty enquiries into rich people with their money in Bermuda , no complex environmental protection no customer protection legislation, no employment rights to restore it to the days when it was great brritain where 2% of people lived in immense luxury and the rest in squalor.
And if people think staying is unpatriotic remember 'My country right or wrong' gets you Hitler or maybe these days Putin.
Rubbish I knew what I was voting for and I lost so how can I say people who voted the other way didnt.

Do you see the more you protest that it wasnt fair because this or that MAY have happened without providing any evidence to back it up the more remainers are seen as bad losers. If you want to be a part of the EU then thats fine but follow democratic process and campaign to rejoin after we have left. If things are as you claim then we should be full members within 5 years or so with the Euro and Schengin as well. There is nothing to stop remainers getting behind a political party winning an election and then enacting the manifesto.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 19:34
  #2610 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
I don't know any brexiteers who hate Europe, its the EU they are not keen on.
Amazing that was your sole take away.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 20:02
  #2611 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
But surely the MPs have no vote on a default exit (as called No Deal) under Article 50, it states if there is no deal the UK leaves and by default that means trading transfers to WTO rules, the only people who can change that is the EU27 and if they don't want to, the UK can do nothing to alter that no matter how much people state they are against that outcome
I think you may have missed the CJEU ruling at the back end of last year which is that the UK can unilaterally revoke the article 50 notification and remain a member of the EU, and that there's absolutely nothing at all whatsoever that the EU27 can do to stop us.

This means that the "default no deal crash out" is not so much a default - it will happen only if there is a decision by our politicians not to revoke A50.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 20:04
  #2612 (permalink)  
 
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Amazing that was your sole take away
You are easily amazed.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 20:09
  #2613 (permalink)  
 
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Now now, do try not to get personal, it's unbecoming.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 20:35
  #2614 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
I agree. I voted remain and am ashamed at the extent that some of my fellow remainers are going to in their attempt to deny they lost. Its always someone elses fault. Its either leavers are thick, racist they hate Europe or Putin bought it.

We lost, get over it and move on there are far more important things going on in this country at the moment.
I really find that quite hard to believe. You don't come across as someone who voted Remain. That just defies logic that you would switch in that direction with all that has occurred. I didn't vote and only came to Remain when it became clear just what the financial penalties came with quitting. The thought processes that might make someone move in the other direction just defy analysis.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 20:49
  #2615 (permalink)  
 
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Possible Russian involvement
It's surprising how often this pops up only by losing sides and after the event with no evidence. I didn't vote so have no axe to bear (couldn't really care either way no matter how hard I try) but anyone who seriously believes that Russia somehow influenced the result, well that is quite preposterous. Actually I am not even sure Brexit would be in long-term Russian interests anyhow... six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I do know that the incumbent UK Government (at least in my opinion) is the worst in living memory by far, even beating Dave & Co... and that is no mean feat, the way they have handled this borders on criminal negligence - it seems the people are mere pawns in political survival games.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 20:50
  #2616 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I think you may have missed the CJEU ruling at the back end of last year which is that the UK can unilaterally revoke the article 50 notification and remain a member of the EU, and that there's absolutely nothing at all whatsoever that the EU27 can do to stop us.

This means that the "default no deal crash out" is not so much a default - it will happen only if there is a decision by our politicians not to revoke A50.
GtW, your right I missed the decision dated 10th December 2018:CJEU ruling

On 10 December 2018, the CJEU itself ruled and, in contrast to the Advocate General, found that unilateral revocation of Article 50 TEU was a sovereign right for any Member State to pursue without any conditions attached, beyond the decision to revoke notification needing to follow a ‘democratic process’ that satisfied national constitutional requirements (as notifying under Article 50 TEU also does) and that the revocation would have to be made before a concluded withdrawal agreement had entered into force or (if there was no agreement) before the Article 50 negotiating period had expired (whether extended by unanimous European Council agreement or not). It further stressed that revocation would result in the Member State remaining an EU Member State on identical terms – meaning that for the UK, a decision to revoke Article 50 TEU would not result in the loss of the UK’s various opt-outs or the budget ‘rebate’ negotiated by the Thatcher government.

However, would there be time to comply with the first bold text above by the end of March, and following with the second bold text above: if May's deal is signed off, we won't be able to revoke article 50, and if we don't get her deal signed off and do not fulfil national constitutional requirements by the end of March we also will be too late.

I also note the oft quoted, but not in earlier transcripts, bit about not losing out if we do revoke Art 50; underlined text.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 21:06
  #2617 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post


I really find that quite hard to believe. You don't come across as someone who voted Remain. That just defies logic that you would switch in that direction with all that has occurred. I didn't vote and only came to Remain when it became clear just what the financial penalties came with quitting. The thought processes that might make someone move in the other direction just defy analysis.
Believe what you want, I didnt say I dont want to be in the EU so I havnt switched in any direction. I just understand how democracy works, we had a vote I voted remain and I lost so now I will wait until the next General election and vote for a party that has rejoin in its manifesto. Attempting to overturn a democratic vote will mean the rise of extreme parties. Whats going to happen if the vote is overturned? do you think leavers will just accept it or do you think there may be a tiny chance of a backlash. Teresa May gone and a eurosceptic leader of the Tory party puts leaving in their manifesto for the next general election and wins a majority. we may win this battle but we wont win the war. We also get a more right wing Tory Govt that would continue to wreck the country for 5 more years.

Better to do it properly play the long game and win in the end.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 21:09
  #2618 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
It's surprising how often this pops up only by losing sides and after the event with no evidence. I didn't vote so have no axe to bear (couldn't really care either way no matter how hard I try) but anyone who seriously believes that Russia somehow influenced the result, well that is quite preposterous. Actually I am not even sure Brexit would be in long-term Russian interests anyhow... six of one, half a dozen of the other.

.
When you say preposterous, do you mean Russia couldn't have influenced voters or that they didn't try? I'm presuming you mean didn't try based on you saying there's no evidence but I''m curious to find out.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 21:11
  #2619 (permalink)  
 
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Just had the misfortune of listening to a certain K Clark in the commons.

He portrays the arrogance of the establishment to a T.
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 21:13
  #2620 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
However, would there be time to comply with the first bold text above by the end of March
Yes.

We don't yet know, until the Scottish case completes, whether the necessary process is a vote in parliament, or whether May can just sign a letter herself, or whether it would need to be an order in council, but assuming that the civil servants are not completely incompetent there will already be drafts of all three on file ready and waiting. Any or all of these processes could take place on March 29th.
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