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Jamal Khashoggi....so what happened then??

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Jamal Khashoggi....so what happened then??

Old 17th Oct 2018, 03:30
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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The presence of a 'bone saw', if true, suggests to me conquer and divide was high up on list of options.
MBS is more thin-skinned the DJT
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 06:19
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus View Post
Of far greater importance than how this fellow met an untimely demise is the impunity in the manner in which the act was carried out.With the full knowledge of the immunity afforded to its perpetrators and falgrant abuse of its privileges. Such an act could not have been carried out without the full knowledge and consent of those holding high rank in office.
Here is an extract from Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations:
Article 29 of the VCDR states that:

"The person of a diplomatic agent shall be inviolable. He shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention. The receiving state shall treat him with due respect and shall take all appropriate steps to prevent any attack on his person, freedom or dignity."

It is possible that this event lead to reconsideration of the Vienna Convention.

Our CPS guidance is informative on this subject. The link is

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...matic-premises
The Libyans did it in London, in full view of dozens of witnesses, and got away with it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murd...vonne_Fletcher
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 07:01
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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With a caution that it is The Mail - and a warning that if true, this is gruesome:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...der-probe.html
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 07:03
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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It seems that the U.S. willingly wishes to be played by MbS as a small priceto pay in its (the U.S.') quest to go after Iran. It is not often that one sees such a display of target fixation that the U.S. has toward Iran--the latest example being the grinning Pompeo as he flew half-way around the world to signal to MbS that everything is fine and proceed on course.

Sadly, you have to hand it to the Saudis however. They have played Trump and the dauphin like a cheap fiddle and continue to do so. It would be one thing for Trump to have remained silent about this, but his full-throttled endorsement of MbS over the past three days is breathtaking.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 07:13
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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The dogs is barking.

Actually, there's this unholy agglomeration of Saudi brutal repression of comment on what they are running in their sandbox, with them reaching out to touch dissidents on foreign soil (Khashoggi is merely the latest victim; there have been others who've been disappeared before this), and the way that many others are perfectly willing to give them a pass because of the amount of money they have at their disposal.

Donald Trump quite openly cited the $110 billion in weapons sales the US is making to Saudi Arabia as a factor in his obvious willingness to ignore the probable truth of what happened in Istanbul to a journalist for "The Washington Post." Now if this does not tie into his naming our free press as an "enemy of the people," along with the way that he's quite opposed to the notion of objective truth being something of supreme value, what does tie into this horrible event?

What OB, and now Wile E. Coyote, are doing is to attempt to uncouple US domestic politics from events abroad, when the way that Trump has shown himself not just willing to ignore the way dictators various hold power but to admire them for that should be impossible to gloss over. (In fact there's a fever dream of liberalism and tolerance on the run from the ascendancy of far-right ways of holding power.)

Trump and his faction are thought-leaders in this celebration of the erosion of democratic rule, closely followed not just by the Saudis but also by the Turkish ruler Erdoğan. (It's quite ironic that Erdoğan now finds himself forced to act on behalf of Turkish sovereignty since it seems that the Saudis were so clumsy as to have murderd Khashoggi instead of neatly disappearing him to Riad to face their version of justice there. At a guess Erdoğan would have been quite happy to see Khashoggi back in Saudi, the place he originally came from, to make this a problem for the USA with Saudi Arabia, one that could easily have been handled by lying and unconcerned Donald Trump. Instead, the Turks are now forced to act since Khashoggi seems to have been murdered on Turkish soil.)

It would be nice if we could look at the events in Istanbul in isolation, as Trump invites us to (Khashoggi not a US citizen, merely a US resident; probably done in by "rogue killers"; $110 billion in weapon sales an over-riding priority; so "Meh"). We should not do that, though. There's a rather direct line between what is going on with Trump in the States and what the Saudis seem to have done in Istanbul, when part of that is, yes, that the truth is of no importance to rulers in the Middle East. The truth is of even less importance to Donald Trump and his Republican clique presently ruling the USA, though. (In fact it might be of importance, but of importance as a thing to be fought against by all possible means.) All of this enjoins us to look at all things together, not separately. Of course doing that is to be troublingly correct and intelligent instead of happily wrong and stupid.

Seeking and proclaiming truth means going against the way the tide is running both abroad and at home, but some of us still "believe these truths to be self-evident."
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 08:36
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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The BBC's Martin Patience got it about right when he described Pompeo's meetings as "a diplomatic clean-up tour".
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 13:39
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Kay Burley (Sky News) .....

"The missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi is either alive or dead."


Elementary, my dear Watson !
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 13:45
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Thank God for a free press! I never could have figured out that it is between these two alternatives, dead or alive, if left to my own devices.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 13:52
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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I know it's a turkish media outlet but it looks like the Suadis roundup the scapegoats:


Edit: Reuters also reporting it: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...mpression=true

I hope the guy left a couple of notes with different lawyers....
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 14:25
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Report now pulled from Reuters, though still showing on some other press sites:

DUBAI, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's Consul General in Istanbul, where prominent Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi disappeared, has been relieved of his post and will be investigated, according to an official statement carried by Sabq newspaper on Wednesday. The Saudi online newspaper did not give details of those violations which the consul Mohammad al-Otaibi is being investigated for. (Reporting by Asma Alsharif; Editing by Michael Georgy)
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 14:38
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Some more gruesome, though obviously unconfirmed, details in Turkey's Hürriyet Daily News about the circumstances of Khashoggi's torture, murder and dismemberment:

Saudi journalist Khashoggi decapitated after fingers cut off: Reports - Turkey News
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 15:13
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
Trump has shown himself not just willing to ignore the way dictators various hold power but to admire them for that should be impossible to gloss over.
Not the first president to do this, and doubtless not the last.
You will note that Jimmy Carter didn't back a coup to throw out Pinochet, for example. Where's your {fake} outrage on that one, chuks?
What Carter did do, though, was pull the US out of the Olympics in 1980 over Soviets in Afghanistan in 1979. This scotched some trade deals with the Soviets (to include Coca-Cola and Levi Strauss, among others) that were going to be a part of the détente idea that was alive and well back then. It was a set back (perhaps modest) for American companies. (My brother's interview with Coca Cola in Atlanta was all about him speaking Russian, and him being a hire for the team that ended up not going there. There wasn't a job for him all of a sudden ... ) Did Carter look good doing that? That really depended upon who you were and what your PoV was. That entire Olympic Team got kicked in the face; the opinion of pundits was mixed in terms of "good idea/bad idea" on that one.

The American relationship with the Saudis has been fraught with a variety of contradictions since the 1973 Yom Kippur war, and for that matter, before. For your further education, please read The Prize. (Daniel Yergin). I am not sure how this (apparent) murder is of greater moment than the various high level geopolitical issues that have been coloring the relationship between Washington and the Saudis since they demanded gold, not credit, for their petrol during WW II (FDR's problem to solve). EDIT: just read DavidReid's link. Yikes, that's gruesome. Sounds like the kind of New Jersey Mafia butchery that was part of the story of Donny Brasco (movie based on some RL goings on in the Mafia's home turf ...)

It is somewhat ironic (to my eye) that the official reaction to both Putin and the Saudis regarding them taking out their people via murder is muted, while at the same time Putin's team and the Saudi team are on opposite sides of the mess in Syria for the last seven years. Prez Trump appears to be holding roughly to Obama's approach on that: back the Saudi play. None of this is as simple as you pretend it to be.


I saw a brief tidbit on the news a few days ago where in the Prez asserted that scotching the arms deal hurts the US more than it hurts the Saudis. I suspect that he's not lying about that. It is no surprise, then, that he won't do that. (This decision is different from, for example, decisions some years ago vis a vis the Pakistanis with F-16's and the 'soon to be retired' frigates that were withheld from sale/transfer, but from my foggy memory Congress got quite involved in that one...).

Does it make Trump look callous? Yes, it does. Does it make him consistent with previous policy vis a vis the Saudis? Roughly, yes, and roughly no.

Here's something for your further education as well. After Gulf War I, and before the 2003 "lets head to Iraq for an extended vacation, kids!" Donald Rumsfeld (Bush 43) continued on with what his predecessors in the Clinton administration slowly but surely did: extracted US presence "on the ground" in Saudi. (PSAB transition to Al Udeid as CENTAF FWD's major operating base being one of a number of major changes).
For further reading on that, read On Point, which was a professional assessment of the ground war in 2003. Of particular interest is the first parts, before the LD was crossed, that covered the time period between 1991 and 2003; one might say that the effect was to turn parts of Kuwait into a forward operating base. EDIT: you'll find most of that here in Chapter 2. I doubt you have the attention span to read the whole thing.

What "punishment" will finally come to pass for the Saudis pulling this off in Turkey?
Not much, regardless of the bluster that came out of Washington soon after the news broke.

On a personal note: I'd appreciate it if you stopped with your lying, and pigeon holing, as regards me. It is beneath you, or it used to be.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 17th Oct 2018 at 15:37.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 16:10
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Beneath me?

Just after the coup in Chile I took a side job house- and dog-sitting for a Chilean family, whose daughter was a friend of my then-girlfriend. When I finally got a close look around the place there in the living room was a framed photograph of General Pinochet. It turned out that I was taking care of the dog that belonged to one of his sisters, I think it was.

Cast your mind back, Lonewolf, and see if you can come up with another sitting US President who has lavished as much praise, shown as much credulity towards, various dictators as Donald Trump has? Literally to tell us that he's fallen in love with Kim Jong Un, and that he believes Putin over what our own intelligence services have told him in some detail is just insane, nothing more, nothing less. Sure we hand out the odd set of warm fuzzies to this or that monster, but what Trump is doing is far beyond the pale.

PM me with concrete examples of how I have targeted you with lies and pigeon-holing and I will see what I can do about that, Lonewolf.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 16:40
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
Thank God for a free press! I never could have figured out that it is between these two alternatives, dead or alive, if left to my own devices.

Actually I think Schrodinger had it about right here. The guy went into the Embassy and never came out. We have no proof he's alive or dead. So right now he's in a quantum State of both in respect to all external observers. QED.

.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 16:51
  #95 (permalink)  

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"The news this evening is reporting that of the 15 people that arrived before the disappearance of Mr Khashoggi, one was a forensics expert and one was carrying a bone saw in his luggage..."

There are dozens of kinds of bone-saw, ranging from the old hand-used to the modern electro/pneumatic - I sincerely doubt whether any non-surgeon would have been able to identify it as such. And a Gigli saw (very efficient) just looks like a length of twisted wire with a loop for the handles on each end.

Anyway, a tenon-saw from 100 years ago works fine (if correctly sharpened and set) - had to use one once, so I can vouch for that.

Mac
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 16:58
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Not surprising but I'm going to take a more wait and see approach to the situation, including how the US responds. We have a lot of armchair quarterbacking taking digs at the admin for not going off half cocked and blaming the entire Saud royal family, including the country's power elite for the disappearance and likely death of the reporter. Although Saudi authority is pretty monolithic, it is not completely one voice over there. If there is a conspiracy that includes the ruling family, or if there is evidence of such, I'm pretty sure Trump will react for the best interests of the American citizens. I'm not sure what it'll be, but I doubt he would cancel an arms deal worth billions over the murder by some fifth column within Saudi.

It may be scapegoating now that the issue has blown up all over the world. I don't think we'll ever know who gave the order. But the royal family is denying it right now, and unless or until they admit something, I think it's best to wait and let the press and the coppers find out what happened, and who caused it to happen. Trump just got done with another case of guilty by innuendo and accusation. He prevailed there, and I wouldn't bet that he doesn't make this work somehow too, even if the top echelon of he Saud family had their hands in this.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 17:58
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Somehow I doubt that MbS will be showing his face outside Saudi, especially after he's indicted by the ICC. Well maybe he can vacation in Sudan and commiserate with a fellow ICC indictee

The Turks are in a bit of a financial straitjacket and could use some financial help that likely will not be forthcoming from Saudi.

Methinks Qatar will be only too happy to help once the tapes are released
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 17:59
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Just in, CBS is reporting that the Saudi govt might be admitting to the death as an 'interrogation gone wrong' resulting in his death.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/saudis-ex...151115147.html

I'm not buying. Accidental death? By interrogation of a journalist? Inside a diplomatic consulate? Of a US citizen? Critical of the Saudi govt and family? What are we - imbeciles? This was murder for hire by the royals. Trump is in a bad spot now.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 18:22
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Trump Doesn't Hold Any Cards, Never Did

Audio Contains Gruesome Details of Khashoggi Killing, Turkish Official Says
Things are becoming clearer, day by day. Turkey holds all the cards in this matter. A senior Turkish official confirmed the details that were published in the pro-government daily newspaper Yeni Safak. It will be interesting to see how Trump props up his immature Saudi Crown Prince now. Turkey has Trump in a vise that is closing fast. Pompeo is walking into a minefield arriving in Turkey on Trump’s behalf just as the bad news breaks, too bad! The immature Saudi Crown Prince has to go if there is to be a US - Saudi relationship going forward.

Last edited by Turbine D; 17th Oct 2018 at 18:25. Reason: added a sentence
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 18:36
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Originally Posted by ethicalconundrum View Post
Just in, CBS is reporting that the Saudi govt might be admitting to the death as an 'interrogation gone wrong' resulting in his death.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/saudis-ex...151115147.html

I'm not buying. Accidental death? By interrogation of a journalist? Inside a diplomatic consulate? Of a US citizen? Critical of the Saudi govt and family? What are we - imbeciles? This was murder for hire by the royals. Trump is in a bad spot now.
I don't believe that Mr Kashoggi is a US citizen, as I understand it from what's been reported, he just works for a US company, but remains a Saudi citizen. As such, I'd guess that the Saudis may view this action as no different to beheading someone within their own country, as what they did happened on their sovereign territory, in effect. We may well think that they've behaved like animals, but then the same could be said about their frequent and many human rights abuses in their own country, about which we do nothing.
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