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European Daylight Saving

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European Daylight Saving

Old 30th Aug 2018, 12:03
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by UniFoxOs View Post
You mean we will remain an hour different from them as now, losing possibly 4 hours trading a day - the hour when they start before us, the two different lunch hours, and the hour we work after they are finished. The only thing the poxy EU couldn't manage to make us do was put our clocks in time with them.
Absolute rubbish! Do you really think traders close their desks and go off for extended lunch breaks? Every second spent offline loses them money
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 12:09
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
The clock changing business is archaic. No reason for it in the modern world. Get rid.
While there are pros and cons for clock changing, I am not clear what aspects of the arguments you believe have somehow become outdated.
Daylight before we get up is essentially wasted, while extra daylight when we get home from work is useful. Hence the "Daylight Saving".
However, keeping Daylight Saving through the whole year renders Winter mornings, dark, dismal and arguably more dangerous for travelling. Hence the switch back.

I lived in the Northwest of England during the trial in the Sixties of constant Daylight Saving and I remember it was generally hated. Obviously in Scotland it was even worse. Most of us don't have the option to adjust our lifestyles to the hours of daylight, and spending several months of the year feeling like night-shift workers - dark going to work and dark coming home - does not suit many.

If there is perhaps one argument that has become archaic, it is that of the inconvenience of changing all one's clocks. Nowadays, our phones, computers, TV recorders all switch themselves.

Last edited by Dont Hang Up; 30th Aug 2018 at 12:23.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 12:22
  #23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Groundloop
If we switched the normal working day to 08.00 - 16.00 a lot of these arguments would disappear.
Originally Posted by UniFoxOs View Post
You mean we will remain an hour different from them as now, losing possibly 4 hours trading a day - the hour when they start before us, the two different lunch hours, and the hour we work after they are finished.
When I was based in Europe (and dealing with the UK) there were two hours in the morning (we started @ 08:00) before the UK 'woke up' and two hours in the afternoon (unless I stayed late).
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 12:33
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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If there is perhaps one argument that has become archaic, it is that of the inconvenience of changing all one's clocks. Nowadays, our phones, computers, TV recorders all switch themselves.
... and many of them would continue to do so, regardless of whether Daylight Savings Time changes had stopped.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 12:37
  #25 (permalink)  
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Only if the European clock tells them too.

And if the EU gets rid of daylight saving the change signal will stop being sent, and the automatic devices won’t change - and if you change manually, they’ll change themselves back again when you’re not looking......

See CET/CEST bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 12:52
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Only if the European clock tells them too.

And if the EU gets rid of daylight saving the change signal will stop being sent, and the automatic devices won’t change - and if you change manually, they’ll change themselves back again when you’re not looking......

See CET/CEST bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77

I believe you are mistaken. The NTP servers that synchronise these system operate to UTC. The conversion to the local time-zone plus any offset can be done to any rules that the service provider implements.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 12:59
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Only if the European clock tells them too.

And if the EU gets rid of daylight saving the change signal will stop being sent, and the automatic devices won’t change - and if you change manually, they’ll change themselves back again when you’re not looking......

See CET/CEST bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77
That's all well and good and I'm sure Android, Microsoft and Apple will sort it out. But there are systems I've come across that contain a bunch of timezone specification files and and an algorithm for calculating the last Sunday in March etc, and play it from there, with no easy way of updating those timezone files.

I only said 'many' not 'most'. Most system will syncronise themselves to a time source and obey DST bits, and most of the rest will allow for turning DST changes on and off manually - but many will not.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 19:40
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
Most of the protests in Scotland were about children having to go to school in the dark in the Western Isles. They don't seem to have the same problem in Iceland which is in the same time zone.
Not just the Western Isles, by a long chalk.

I remember watching the sun rise at 9:30 am from my school classroom in Edinburgh, same went for most of Scotland during the winter DST experiment.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 20:00
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Not just the Western Isles, by a long chalk.

I remember watching the sun rise at 9:30 am from my school classroom in Edinburgh, same went for most of Scotland during the winter DST experiment.
Me to Dave, I still remember those walks to school in the dark. I was lucky as I was still at primary when they did it, and glad I didn't have to travel further, as I would have had to, for my secondary school. Personally I think midday should be midday, and if farmers need to get up earlier, then that's up to them. Having worked plenty of shifts where you start well before dawn and don't finish till after dusk in the winter, this clock changing is a load of bollox, especially as I always seemed to end up working the extra hour when they went back in October. I really resented that, despite the hours overtime.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 21:29
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Try being born and raised in Tromsø, then add in umpten crossings of the Pacific Ocean at 13/14 knots while on sea duty 4 on/8 off, 7x12. Now figure out how much, and how often we had to adjust the time.
The best was three full cirumnavigations in succession only heading east. Had three weeks of 8 days, Beatles style.
Daylight saving time, bah!
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 21:33
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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The UK had Double Summertime during WWII. I can't remember what we used in the winter.

WRT France, as usual the French pick & choose what the want to use and what they want to ignore.
Their Indian Ocean outpost of Isle de l'Reunion, which is very much in the EU when it comes to receiving subsides, does not have any form of daylight saving. They are so close to the equator that dusk & dawn don't change much.

Dunno what they do with St. Pierre & Miquelon, or Guadeloupe, Martinique and St. Martin.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 21:42
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
The clock changing business is archaic. No reason for it in the modern world. Get rid.
I quite agree.

Much better to keep the clocks (here in the uk) on UTC and encourage organizations to decide on their own hours to suit their particular circumstances.
I find it irritating that for much of the year the sun is not at its zenith at midday (give or take a couple of minutes or so depending on where you are).

The current system lacks scientific integrity.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 22:58
  #33 (permalink)  
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From 1940 to 1947, the United Kingdom was not on its usual Greenwich Mean Time (UTC+0) at any point in the year. When British Summer Time ended in 1940, the clocks weren’t put back an hour, so the country remained on UTC+1 until the following spring, when…the clocks were still put ahead an hour, to UTC+2.
From:- https://www.atlasobscura.com/article...f-world-war-ii
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 23:36
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
G-CPTN
Thanks for the details. I was working from memory.

I was rather young at the time, but it didn't get dark before my bed time in the summer.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 01:08
  #35 (permalink)  
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It always mystified me how altering my watch would make the Earth's rotational position vary. Is it that some magic waves radiate to the sun's mass and cause it to shine at a different angle, or do we just spin the Earth up locally? Yes, I realise the need to un-spin it in the Autumn or the areas that we've accelerated would all have rushed around the globe and bunched up - which could be the cause of Tsunamis.

Of course, I'm being silly . . . I know the magic waves go from people's watches into their brains and make them TOTALLY F'IN DAFT.

TIME IS BOLTED TO THE EARTH.

Get your fat @rses out of bed when required. If the evenings are not long enough for you take an antipodean holiday for 6 months a year.

Or I suppose, Stardate pico-pulses could be transmitted universally on sub-space frequencies so we'd all be on the same, erm, page.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 03:04
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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My vote is for UTC/GMT all year round and for people to get up an hour earlier if they want more daylight in their evening. Noon is supposed to be when the sun is highest (and before railways, tended to be so with the result that noon was later in Cornwall than Norfolk). Noon is when the sun is highest over Greenwich and the rest is your own problem.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 07:39
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ian16th View Post
WRT France, as usual the French pick & choose what the want to use and what they want to ignore.
Their Indian Ocean outpost of Isle de l'Reunion, which is very much in the EU when it comes to receiving subsides, does not have any form of daylight saving. They are so close to the equator that dusk & dawn don't change much.
Not just French overseas departements and regions, but I can't think of any country close to the Equator that uses DST, for the reasons you describe.

In Saint Pierre and Miquelon that doesn't apply, of course, so their clocks go forward in spring and back in autumn, though I think that happens when the rest of North American applies DST rather than when EU clocks change.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 08:53
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ian16th View Post
WRT France, as usual the French pick & choose what the want to use and what they want to ignore.
Their Indian Ocean outpost of Isle de l'Reunion, which is very much in the EU when it comes to receiving subsides, does not have any form of daylight saving.
The directive says, quite sensibly
(8) For geographical reasons, the common summer-time arrangements should not apply to the overseas territories of the Member States,
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 09:04
  #39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Absolute rubbish! Do you really think traders close their desks and go off for extended lunch breaks? Every second spent offline loses them money
Unifox is not entirely wrong. He also forgot morning and afternoon coffee breaks which can steal another hour. Stock traders might synchronise their shifts with foreign markets and no doubt some manufacturers too, but where the major part of a business is internal then that time difference is real.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 09:12
  #40 (permalink)  
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One winter in Iceland it was surreal going about one's business in pitcher darkness at 11am but otherwise I was used to going to work in the dark and home in the dark in Scotland. Scottish summers OTOH could be wonderful or a PITA with full daylight at 2300. In Oslo however they just move around the cafes following the sun and enjoying it while it lasts.
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