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Anyone else think this is plainly wrong

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Anyone else think this is plainly wrong

Old 1st Aug 2018, 14:43
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
"Not found to be true" is not the same as "found not to be true".
But in practice, you can't make a meaningful distinction between the two.

When a jury returns a Not Guilty verdict, they are not asked whether that means they are convinced of a defendant's innocence, or simply not convinced of his/her guilt.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 15:08
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
But in practice, you can't make a meaningful distinction between the two.
I do all the time, eg all day every day at work - "does this system work properly" is usually that sort of question.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 15:33
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I do all the time, eg all day every day at work - "does this system work properly" is usually that sort of question.
I thought we were talking about guilt or innocence in the context of the criminal justice system ?

Well I was, anyway.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 16:42
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
I thought we were talking about guilt or innocence in the context of the criminal justice system ?

Well I was, anyway.
I was pointing out a logic error.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 17:36
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I was pointing out a logic error.
If you say so.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 17:54
  #66 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Exactly what I was trying to get across, several people have commented would you want this person teaching your child, well probably not, but that is wrong in itself, his none crime was nothing to do with children so is really immaterial.

what is wrong is his none convicton has been kept on his record, but if I am reading this correctly he has not been added to the sex offenders register which would prevent him from teaching because he is not guilty, yet his none crime has been added to his record which is in effect is serving the same purpose, and that is punishng him for something the jury of his peers deemed he did not commit, it does not matter if one of the twelve says they are not sure, it is a majority vote and hence why you have more than one juror to create fairness.


..
It might be a good idea to read the criteria for DBS checks and what offences are considered relevant for inclusion and at what level of check .
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 18:59
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
If you say so.
Yup. If for example I claim that "all crows are black", I can prove this by catching all the crows in the universe and observing that they are all black, or I can disprove it by catching one crow that isn't black.

But what I if I catch a few million crows, and they're all black, but I haven't caught all of them? - there might, or there might not, still be a non-black one out there.

Then my claim is "not found to be true" but is not "found not to be true". We didn't do very much logic in O level maths, but we did do that much.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 19:59
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Yup. If for example I claim that "all crows are black", I can prove this by catching all the crows in the universe and observing that they are all black, or I can disprove it by catching one crow that isn't black.

But what I if I catch a few million crows, and they're all black, but I haven't caught all of them? - there might, or there might not, still be a non-black one out there.

Then my claim is "not found to be true" but is not "found not to be true". We didn't do very much logic in O level maths, but we did do that much.
I'm not disputing any of that, only the implication that it's somehow possible to discern the difference between "not found to be true" and "found not to be true" implicit in a jury's Not Guilty verdict.

If that's not what you meant, then fine.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 20:10
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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This is like Cliff Richards case against the BBC, where they reported on the police raid, which didn't lead to an arrest, trial, conviction.

Should there be complete anonymity for the accused, until they have been convicted? If innocent the records are sealed, if guilty the full transcript is released.

just hope there isn't a successful appeal.......
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Old 2nd Aug 2018, 10:03
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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She was named as alledgedly she appears on a long running Radio program based in a fictional place that had endured over the years............. IF what I read was correct.
Like you and I suspect most people who had an interest in this case I know the identity of the woman in question. With the way the internet works, it is impossible to keep such information private. I learned her identity from a US based website - no offence is being committed in the US in these circumstances, but I am pretty sure I am right in saying that it would still be illegal to publish her name in the UK.
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Old 2nd Aug 2018, 15:58
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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When I look back at some of my "activities" involving the fair sex from when I was a teenager to when I got engaged, I have to say that I am glad all this man-guilt wasn't around then. Everything was done with 100% consent, but it is so easy to withdraw/forget/deny consent. It must be tough being a teenager now!
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Old 2nd Aug 2018, 16:21
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Although I guess a Caledonian girl would not withdraw consent.
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 17:00
  #73 (permalink)  
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The tittle of this thread seemed the most appropriate ......

There may be more to this, but, as excuses go "it slipped my mind "......as it can, and as you do when walking out without, erm, paying for the goods, doesn't seem that original or convincing really.....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-fortnum-mason
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