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This is just so wrong

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This is just so wrong

Old 6th Apr 2018, 13:49
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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The point is that the poor chap who is the victim here is facing an extremely stressful, anxious wait to find out if he will face charges. An explicit provision in law allowing for an absolute right to use lethal force to protect your home (with no caveats regarding proportionality or reasonableness) would prevent such a situation arising. An intruder in someone’s home should be assumed to have forfeited any and all human rights.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 14:05
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
The point is that the poor chap who is the victim here is facing an extremely stressful, anxious wait to find out if he will face charges. An explicit provision in law allowing for an absolute right to use lethal force to protect your home (with no caveats regarding proportionality or reasonableness) would prevent such a situation arising. An intruder in someone’s home should be assumed to have forfeited any and all human rights.
And has been mentioned several times, why would you take the word of the homeowner without investigating? As an example, police are called to a dead 25 year old. Homeowner is a 50 year old holding a bloody knife, and there is no dispute that he killed him. Do the police:
A) accept homeowner’s word that it was a burglar, get the body removed and give homeowner the number of a good cleaning company
B) investigate properly to find out what actually happened?

You might say A, but what if B found that the ‘burglar’ was actually someone who got Mr Homeowner’s 16 year old daughter pregnant on a one night stand. Homeowner got him round on the pretext of discussing the situation, but once he was inside buried the carving knife in him?

Must be frustrating that real life is rarely black and white!
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 14:29
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
The point is that the poor chap who is the victim here is facing an extremely stressful, anxious wait to find out if he will face charges.
I doubt that very much. His lawyer will have assured him that once the proper legal formalities are completed he will be free of any charge.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 16:06
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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The usual two types of poster in this thread;
"Shoot and kill the bastards they all deserve it and with them dead the community will be that much better off"
and...
"Let the laws of a civilised society take care of the matter"
It's a bit like the Brexit discussion, none will listen to the other.
The first are the 'tough guys' of society, "can take care of myself and my family thank you very much, don't pay much attention to your mamby pamby laws" - personally, I don't very much like this sort of person.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 17:41
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
The point is that the poor chap who is the victim here is facing an extremely stressful, anxious wait to find out if he will face charges. An explicit provision in law allowing for an absolute right to use lethal force to protect your home (with no caveats regarding proportionality or reasonableness) would prevent such a situation arising. An intruder in someone’s home should be assumed to have forfeited any and all human rights.
Yeah right. A gatecrasher at a party? Who is tolerated for the first few hours, until they become drunk and (non-violently) noisy, and is then dis-not-invited so becomes an "intruder"?
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 18:14
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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funfly wrote: The first are the 'tough guys' of society, "can take care of myself and my family thank you very much, don't pay much attention to your mamby pamby laws" - personally, I don't very much like this sort of person.

Should we assume that you prefer the CAN'T take care of myself OR my family type?
Colour me bemused......
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 18:29
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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BBC reporting that this gentleman will face 'No Further Action' = police have done their duty and investigated, as they are obliged to do, but see no reason to take things further.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 18:33
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, just seen it...hopefully that decision will satisfy most if not all previous posters.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 18:45
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cargosales View Post
BBC reporting that this gentleman will face 'No Further Action' = police have done their duty and investigated, as they are obliged to do, but see no reason to take things further.
Ie, business as usual, exactly as expected, move along please, nothing to see here.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 19:05
  #110 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Ie, business as usual, exactly as expected, move along please, nothing to see here.
+1 is too short. But, +1
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 19:21
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Yeah right. A gatecrasher at a party? Who is tolerated for the first few hours, until they become drunk and (non-violently) noisy, and is then dis-not-invited so becomes an "intruder"?


Essentially, yes. When he is asked politely to leave and refuses to do so, the law should (and does, here) permit you to use whatever force is reasonably necessary to remove him from your property.


This is not the same as finding someone in your home uninvited, holding what you perceive as a weapon with intent that you can quite sensibly assume is contrary to your continued good health. "It was dark, he had a weapon and I feared for my life"


Some states in the US have "castle" or "no duty to retreat" laws that grant folks the right to defend their lives and property. I have to say, I think they are on the right track and I wish sometimes we had similar legislation here in Canada because I think, and most reasonable people would agree that it better reflects the spirit of common law. Consider that for a second, but be careful to separate these rights from the American 2nd amendment argument.


It is always about intent. I intend to live my life in peace and safety in my home, working to provide the means to do so and giving what I can to help other achieve the same. There are criminals who intend to violate this scene and take what I have achieved rather than work for it themselves.


Our problem is that we are not building a society that unequivocally nurtures the first and mercilessly hammers the second.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 19:51
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Viper 7 View Post
Essentially, yes. When he is asked politely to leave and refuses to do so, the law should (and does, here) permit you to use whatever force is reasonably necessary to remove him from your property.
Indeed, and I've done so, and that's fine. But I don't want a law which says I'm entitled to shoot him dead for refusing (or being too drunk) to leave.

Once Upon A Time there was this drunk gatecrasher asleep in our bath. We could have picked him up and chucked him out of the house, but it was bloody freezing and he'd have been found dead in the morning. So we called the cops, just to ask for advice.

Cops turned up, took one look at him, "we're not having that in our car", called a van (we were all of half a mile from the cop shop so this didn't take very long). Policemen picked him up, carried him out of the house, put him down on the pavement, and walked away a few yards.

Then they turned round, and said "oh look what we've found someone drunk and incapable in a public place, better arrest him". Took him to the police station, kept him overnight (in the warm, and regularly checked for his safety), gave him breakfast, charged him, fined £30 when he appeared in court a couple of days later (this was a long time ago, think several hundred now). And the guy came round to see us to apologise for having been a pain.

That's the way to do it. Right to kill intruders, no questions asked? FFS.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 20:12
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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He hasn't been charged with anything, and I'll bet a pound to a squashed sausage that he wont be.
My post #95 - I always knew that quid was safe. I wont miss the squashed sausage either.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 20:35
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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You can do serious injury with a substantial screwdriver. My favorite would be my Stanley heavy duty quick return. Lots of length and heft.

But the best improvised small weapon is a hammer.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 20:42
  #115 (permalink)  
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And poor Mr Vincent, led astray by his family. Oh, and an ex-professional boxer a gentle giant
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 21:23
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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It has been announced that no charges are being brought against the homeowner. The burglar belonged to a criminal family and I hope they don't take any reprisals against the old guy.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 21:34
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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With his form I don't think that they will try.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 21:47
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Thank god that since the Tories toughened up the law in favour of householders, most of these cases end in no further action. I am especially happy that it has happened in this case.

My issue is that this poor chap was incarcerated for 24 hours having just been the victim of a violent attack in his own home in the middle of the night by two criminals a lot younger than him.

Anyone who thinks this is acceptable in a civilised society has a screw loose.

I am not for a minute saying that either grossly disproportionate force is acceptable (such as for example a beating in the gatecrasher example given) nor am I saying that Police shouldn't conduct a full investigation.

But it should not be beyond the wit of investigators to establish within say 1-2 hours of arriving what happened and if there is anything which doesn't quite add up.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 21:54
  #119 (permalink)  
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I guess that one reason for arresting the householder and removing them from the premises is to obviate the possibility of adjusting the crime scene before it has been thoroughly examined by SOCO.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 22:13
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry Doors to Automatic I'm going to have to admit to a screw loose in that case. Given how slowly the law usually works, I reckon less than 24 hours is pretty good. I note your use of the emotive word "incarcerated" which while technically correct implies something a lot less pleasant than what I suspect happened. I'm guessing this involved ultra polite treatment, as comfy a bed as they could manage as well as meals and as many cups of tea as he wanted

Doubt if they stretched to a Guinness though!
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