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Pay Per Mile

Old 23rd Dec 2017, 06:18
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Pay Per Mile

They question has been repeatedly asked how governments intend to replace the income for petrol/diesel tax as electric vehicles take over. The answer has been repeatedly given that it will be by the introduction of “pay per mile” charging and that was the intent behind EU directives on road usage and the design and implementation of the Galileo GPS system. It is no coincidence Galileo is expected to reach FOC status in 2020 - about the time I expect these charges to start to be introduced. This is not a sudden decision, but the culmination of long laid plans......

Pay per mile in road toll revolution

Charging plan targets lorries but all vehicles may follow

Britain’s first national pay-per-mile road charging system is being considered by the government, The Times has learnt.

Mileage and emissions-based charges could be introduced for lorries to cut traffic under a proposal by the Department for Transport (DfT). It is outlining the system for heavy goods vehicles, which raises the prospect that the new levy could be used in part to replace existing taxes such as fuel duty. The move comes as the amount of fuel duty the Treasury collects — £27.5 billion this year, at a rate of 57.95p per litre of diesel or petrol — is projected to fall because of the growth of electric and hybrid cars. It would represent a significant overhaul of how vehicles are taxed.

The government said that the road-pricing plan was restricted to lorries but industry figures predicted that it would act as a test bed for a universal system for all vehicles. The Labour government ten years ago ditched a similar scheme after a public backlash. Duncan Buchanan, policy director at the Road Haulage Association and a former senior civil servant at the Department for Transport, said: “This is a precursor to road-user charging for every vehicle. Why would you introduce it just for lorries? . . . The electrification of lorries — so the loss of fuel duty revenue — is not going to happen as quickly as it is for cars and other small vehicles . . . It seems we are facing a scenario where they are testing the technology on us.”

Road pricing in Britain is used on the M6 toll road in the West Midlands, which costs up to £5.90 for cars and £11 for HGVs. Congestion charging is also used in central London, where a second “toxicity” levy was added this year to penalise the most polluting cars. However, existing charging is seen as a blunt tool as it fails to recognise how far vehicles have travelled within a charging zone or the real-world emissions. Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, has suggested moving to a pay-as-you-go charging system in the capital.

Since 2014 HGVs have been subjected to a levy based on a vehicle’s weight and The number of axles, which does not vary according to which roads they use. The DfT has issued a “call for evidence”, with a view to reforming the charge and possibly bringing it closer to those in countries such as Germany and Austria, which have distance-based rates. The document, open to the public until late next month, asks for responses to a levy that “incentivises efficient use of roads”. It refers to a “charge based on the distance travelled by HGVs and by the emissions class of vehicle”, adding that as it would “encourage operators to drive more efficiently, this could help to ease congestion”. It said that the levy “could be made compatible with current taxes both at a national level and also for charges for passing specific points (eg tolling crossings on the network)”. The objective was “not to increase overall revenues raised” from lorries, it said, raising the prospect that it could replace or operate alongside fuel duty and vehicle excise duty.

Any charging system would probably use vehicle-tracking technology. The document asks for views on automatic numberplate recognition cameras and GPS-style tracking satellites. Tantalum, a tech company, is testing vehicle- tracking systems that are capable of estimating real-time emissions as part of a £1.1 million government–backed trial. Official sources said that a pay-per-mile system for cars was not on the agenda as it was politically toxic. Tony Blair was handed a petition signed by 1.8 million motorists opposing a trial of road pricing a decade ago. The plan, under which drivers would have been charged up to £1.30 a mile, was ditched. However, civil servants are believed to be keen to analyse the impact of any HGV tolling system. A source close to the DfT said: “There is definitely some interest in this. There is a recognition within government that the civil servants are going to have to take a look at this well in advance of 2040 [when the UK will ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars], even if the politicians don’t want to face up to it for obvious reasons.”

Steve Gooding, director of the RAC Foundation and former director- general of roads at the DfT, said that reform of the HGV levy “shouldn’t be taken as a sign that road pricing is about to reappear from the political deep-freeze any time soon”. He added: “A more sophisticated HGV charge could provide the opportunity for testing and demonstrating the robustness of a pay-as-you-go approach.”

The Treasury said the government recognised that, in the long term, “revenues from a number of the current transport taxes may decline as vehicles become more efficient”. A spokesman added: “Forecasts for the uptake of ultra-low emission vehicles and electric vehicles are inherently uncertain, but fuel duty will continue to be an important part of the tax system.” The DfT said: “We are consulting on the HGV levy to help hauliers make more efficient use of our roads and improve environmental performance . . . HGVs cause greater wear and tear to road surfaces than many other vehicle types, and are responsible for a significant proportion of transport emissions, which is why we are reviewing the levy.”

The Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit, a think tank, has warned that the amount of money collected through fuel duty will start “falling rapidly” within the decade. This summer the Office for Budget Responsibility said that it could fall as a proportion of GDP from 2021-22. Matt Finch, a business and economic analyst, said: “We have less than a decade to get a replacement plan in place.”......

https://www.gsa.europa.eu/news/progr...ng-asecap-2015

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galile...ite_navigation)
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 07:25
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TA, I did an OU course that covered the development of cities. Leeds was the case in point. Workers were clustered in cheap housing close to their factories. Their bosses further out within coach distance. Then came trams.

With better links, those that could afford it could build houses out in the suburbs and avoid the muck and pollution in the centre.

As you say, many EU countries continue to embrace a transport infrastructure that can support suburban commuters. Our problem is the pesky commuter that chooses to live in remote villages

Where I am, I am 8 miles from my nearest station but that line actually connects a number of villages with the city. And that city is served by a network of three lines. However this causes ire amongst the town population because the level crossing is closed several times per hour, you can't win. Furthermore, what are effectively strip malls need car drivers as they can buy the volume of goods to sustain the malls - you can't win.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 07:28
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Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post
I'm all for plans to cut polluting vehicles from our roads! You know.. as soon as there is economically priced reliable public transport that serves more than just larger hubs and leaves the country folk without or with a service so poor it may as well not exist. Once there is useable public transport that doesn't cost the earth well then perhaps it could be looked into.

I'm looking to move near a new major city and I'm struggling to find ANY commuter towns that have public transport that would cater to an early flight report or late finish. Towns that have a direct rail link straight to the airport. So I'm stuck with driving a good chunk of days even though I'd happily take the train.

UK public transport is a joke compared to many EU countries.

True, it can be a joke in many parts of the UK....so a rousing cheer here for the legacy of the Transport Act 1985 ( the clue to this date is that cherished and adored word.....privatisation ) and it's precedent, the "Marples Report" or the Beeching Report for the purists.

Thankfully, Mr Grayling has indicated some 4000 miles of former track will be reinstated.....cycle / bridle / walking paths / industrial and housing estates / roads being mere details in this grand scheme.

Of course, you could relocate to our glorious capital ( although Inverness is a far more civilised and better location ) and benefit from the 24hr transport links ......the rest of the UK being happily ignored.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 08:42
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What would happen to any politican that suggested 'Pay per Day' for the use of NHS hospital beds?
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 08:53
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FWIW, Chris Grayling was interviewed about this on the news this morning and he said categorically that "pay per mile" would not be applied to cars, and was simply to resolve a long standing complaint by UK hauliers that non-UK trucks used our roads, caused as much road wear and tear as UK trucks, but didn't pay their fair share of road rebuilding costs.

Seems a good scheme to me, one that will have no negative impact on ordinary motorists and also one that will help the UK haulage industry, in all probability, by taking a greater slice of the road fund budget from non-UK hauliers that use our roads. Given that road tax is, once again, ring fenced, so it can only be spent on roads, then anything that helps keep that revenue pot topped up from sources outwith the UK seems a good thing.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 08:57
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Mileage and emissions-based charges could be introduced for lorries to cut traffic under a proposal by the Department for Transport (DfT).

I don't get it.
Cut traffic?
So, cut the goods moved? Cut the goods consumers are demanding that results in all the traffic?
What is the mystery replacement for the cut in truck traffic?
Recession?
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 09:04
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Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
I don't get it.
Cut traffic?
So, cut the goods moved? Cut the goods consumers are demanding that results in all the traffic?
Yes. Cut all the unnecessary Chinese tat that people waste their borrowed money on, that ends up in landfill a few months later, ect ect. Win all round.

Instead of buying a bra for £2.99 that won't survive a single wash or an iTat for £999 that won't survive a single battery wearing out we could, like, y'know, buy decent gear that's going to last longer than five minutes, and cut the trucks by a factor of five or so at a stroke.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 09:07
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Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
I don't get it.
Cut traffic?
So, cut the goods moved? Cut the goods consumers are demanding that results in all the traffic?
What is the mystery replacement for the cut in truck traffic?
Recession?
The plan (which is still flexible and in consultation) isn't to cut goods moved at all, it is to target the big trucks.

The problem we have right now is that the distribution companies are cutting corners to reduce cost. Take our small, rural village as an example. We have a very good village shop/post office, that serves a population of around 600 people living locally. It is a franchise (Nisa) and it receives a daily delivery via a 44 tonne articulated truck, with a tail lift. Needless to say, for the 30 minutes each day that the shop is being stocked, no traffic can get through the village at all, and the truck has to keep its engine idling to run the tail lift and refrigeration system.

Deliveries to this shop used to be via a small Transit-sized box van, that could park off road and not cause any traffic hold up at all. Nisa chose to cut costs by closing the local distribution centre and making deliveries direct from their main hub, using the biggest trucks that can legally be driven on UK roads. Given that their network of shops are almost all small village stores, this is barking mad in terms of the level on inconvenience and local pollution they create, but Nisa don't give a damn, as it improves their bottom line.

If there are incentives to take big trucks off smaller roads and congested areas, such that it become economical for companies like Nisa to switch back to using small local delivery trucks, perhaps electric ones as they don't need a long range, then there is a net benefit all around. The benefit of doing this in cities would be even greater, particularly in terms of pollution reduction.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 09:08
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
FWIW, Chris Grayling was interviewed about this on the news this morning and he said categorically that "pay per mile" would not be applied to cars, and was simply to resolve a long standing complaint by UK hauliers that non-UK trucks used our roads, caused as much road wear and tear as UK trucks, but didn't pay their fair share of road rebuilding costs.

Seems a good scheme to me, one that will have no negative impact on ordinary motorists and also one that will help the UK haulage industry, in all probability, by taking a greater slice of the road fund budget from non-UK hauliers that use our roads. Given that road tax is, once again, ring fenced, so it can only be spent on roads, then anything that helps keep that revenue pot topped up from sources outwith the UK seems a good thing.
Did Mr Grayling not consider that similar charging is likely to be applied to UK hauliers operating on the continent? On balance there may not be any great benefit.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 09:14
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@ORAC.
If your original post is a wholesale copy from behind the Times paywall, you might like to consider whether this was wise.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 10:14
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Just another tax grab dressed up as an environmental policy.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 10:38
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
They question has been repeatedly asked how governments intend to replace the income for petrol/diesel tax as electric vehicles take over. The answer has been repeatedly given that it will be by the introduction of “pay per mile” charging and that was the intent behind EU directives on road usage and the design and implementation of the Galileo GPS system. It is no coincidence Galileo is expected to reach FOC status in 2020 - about the time I expect these charges to start to be introduced. This is not a sudden decision, but the culmination of long laid plans......
I would say, there are two main steps (at least when I observe the evolution in our country):

1. GPS system is already operational for lorries (over 3,5t overall weight) – GPS units within trucks are combined with road surveillance checkpoints which would detect any car with GPS unit switched off. They pay per mile/kilometre already now.
There is an ongoing discussion that this will be enhanced to all traffic including personal cars and motorcycles. I consider this move as done deal and there is no question "if" but "when".

2. Electricity distribution monopoly started the process in which the calculation of the price undergoes drastic changes. In the past we paid mostly for the consumed electricity (kWh) and there was some fixed distribution fee (for the connection as such). This will change. As there is less and less consumption of electricity the distribution companies charge higher fixed fee. And the trick is the following: the stronger the circuit breaker the higher the fee.

Any electric car owner already recognised that if you have to charge the car fast you need strong current which requires high value circuit breakers.

We did some calculations and with the proposed model of pricing it is very clear that we will pay more for electricity than we spend on the fuel nowadays.

They try to push the pricing changes before there are too many electric cars on the roads so this hidden taxation is not visible to an average Joe Public yet.

The day I did calculations I understood why there is such a hysteria about global warming, why there is such a push to ban diesel and petrol engines etc. It would make up a nice conspiracy theory...
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 10:44
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Pay-per-mile for cars would be a very blunt edged tool.

In rural Lincolnshire one may travel many miles to a relatively low paid job, with little likelihood of a public transport option. The car is likely to be in a highish gear, so travelling efficiently and using not much fuel per mile.
On the other hand, a car sitting in an urban traffic jam will be belching out pollution whilst the engine drives the heater or air conditioner. Walking, cycling or public transport may actually be quicker, but lazy people don't do them.
Who should pay the most?
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 10:50
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Originally Posted by Pali View Post
There is an ongoing discussion that this will be enhanced to all traffic including personal cars and motorcycles. I consider this move as done deal and there is no question "if" but "when".
The question was put (twice, IIRC) to Chris Grayling this morning as to whether "pay per mile" would eventually be rolled out to cover cars. His answer was a categoric no. No weasel words, no trying to evade the question, he simply said that there was no good reason to apply "pay per mile" to cars and lots of difficulties in implementing such a system.

I believe the main issue here is that road hauliers have, for years, been lobbying hard that the road tax they pay is too high and that the number of non-UK trucks on our roads has increased dramatically in recent years, and they (the road hauliers) believe that it is intrinsically unfair that they should have to pay far more to use the roads than non-UK truck owners.

Given our road tax system, I think that trying to implement "pay per mile" to ordinary cars would be both very expensive to set up and deeply unpopular. We already have a form of "pay per mile" in terms of relatively high fuel duty, so that cars that use the most fuel pay more than cars that use less fuel.

The advent of widespread use of electric cars will be an issue that the government will need to look at in terms of taxation, but my guess is that they may well just adjust the existing road tax rates to allow them to generate enough revenue, once electric cars become a reasonable proportion of the total UK car fleet size. Taxing electricity, in the same way as petrol and diesel is taxed, is impractical, given that so many electric cars will be charged from domestic supplies (in my case, much of my car charging comes from our big solar panel array, anyway).
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 11:16
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VP959,

He could say that because it isn’t expected during this parliament. But the EU is planning to expand it to cover light private vehicles and the white paper has Lready done the rounds. It is possible it will never be introduced in the UK once we leave the EU. But with the anticipated drop in fuel tax revenue I doubt it....

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...m-2012-199.pdf

https://www.gsa.europa.eu/system/fil.../road_gnss.pdf
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 11:24
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Beware of unintended consequences. If Pay per Mile is applied to trucks, trucks will simply get larger. They already put tiny wheels on trailers to lower the load bed and increased the height for long distance juggernauts. We’ll see the same for the short-haul delivery wagons next.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 11:30
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pali

There is an ongoing discussion that this will be enhanced to all traffic including personal cars and motorcycles. I consider this move as done deal and there is no question "if" but "when".
The question was put (twice, IIRC) to Chris Grayling this morning as to whether "pay per mile" would eventually be rolled out to cover cars. His answer was a categoric no. No weasel words, no trying to evade the question, he simply said that there was no good reason to apply "pay per mile" to cars and lots of difficulties in implementing such a system.
I think Pali was describing the position in his native Slovakia
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 12:18
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I'm sceptical that we could roll out an effective "pay per mile" scheme for private cars here in the UK. I'm sure we could do it on major trunk routes, using technology like ANPR, but I can't see how it would work in rural areas. Once all cars are equipped with GPS and some form of data link to relay their position all time than it could be possible, but GPS is very easily defeated, and I'm sure that a lot of people would object very strongly to having their every journey tracked by the government, anyway. On a point of principle I would.

Trucks are an easy target, as they already have the technology built in, so all that's needed is a way to use data that is already collected to generate the charge.

When it comes to generating revenue, road tax is a much simpler mechanism to use for cars, it's relatively easy to police (easier now than it used to be), relatively cheap to administer and it's something most are used to having to pay, anyway. There's a good argument for including basic insurance along with the tax, too, in my view.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 12:41
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BS, exactly. I would bet there are more wise men in the haulage industry than in Whitehall. When road tax was frozen and revenue raised on fuel instead foreign trucks got bigger fuel tanks.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 13:13
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California has already done a test run of pay per mile. I am sure it will be implemented on top of the tax on gasoline.

There is a new vehicle registration fee starting 1/1/18. Fees don’t require a public vote. It will be based on the current value of the vehicle. It is for road repair, etc.

The problem is a 2003 Hummer H1 valued at $55,000 and weighing 7500 lbs does more road damage than a 2017 Lamborghini Aventador S valued at $424,000 and weighing 4100 lbs.

If I owned the Lambo I would be complaining very loudly.
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