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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

Old 26th Aug 2017, 15:59
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Current example....the Seventh Fleet Commander was relieved of duty two weeks before his Retirement.....and will go out to pasture with full Pay and Benefits and a nice Pension. Watch what happens to the Captain of the McCain.
If he qualifies for retirement benefits he will get the same.

Timing is important
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 17:15
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldCessna View Post
You can't always believe what you read in the MSM especially on the left coast!

Show me a MSM reporter or TV reporter that doesn't inject their own bias into the their reporting? Very few! You only have to watch the BBC
What are you babbling about? That's two quotes. The contrast is obvious. No "msm" involved.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 17:40
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
... but apportioning blame right now would by any measure, be overly premature.
My sailing instructor made clear to us over and over: the International Rules for the Prevention of Collision At Sea make clear that no party to a collision at sea is blameless. So with time, only the portion of blame is going to change.

CG
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 17:51
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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It does take two to Tango.

No matter what the other guy does...or does not do....you do not run into anything and be blameless.

Sailing a fair sized Ketch in very shallow shoaling waters....running aground happens....running over submerged obstructions happens...but running into another vessel.....that should never happen.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 18:22
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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What about if the thing you run into is designed to have a very low radar cross-section, is not on AIS and running with no lights at night?
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 18:51
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MFC_Fly View Post
What about if the thing you run into is designed to have a very low radar cross-section, is not on AIS and running with no lights at night?
The McCain and Fitzgerald have reduced radar signatures compared with the original design, but I don't see how a huge steel ship could have a "very low radar cross-section" at those ranges. Hull down, over the horizon maybe- which would just mean making the stuff sticking up stealthy. That would be valuable to a warship, and practical. But look what it takes to make aircraft stealthy...
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 19:05
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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PPRT, you stick with fixing them and I will stick to operating them ;-)
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 21:51
  #148 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
If he qualifies for retirement benefits he will get the same.

Timing is important
Retiring at full term and being retired prematurely are wholly different. He will also be the captain who . . .

Read up the wiki article on USS Cole and her captain.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 23:18
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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What about if the thing you run into is designed to have a very low radar cross-section, is not on AIS and running with no lights at night?
you mean like a lighthouse with the light off?
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 23:28
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MFC_Fly View Post
PPRT, you stick with fixing them and I will stick to operating them ;-)
I have no specific knowledge of the McCain's radar signature, but I was the production test supervisor of the hp 8510 Network Analyzer, which was used to quantify the stealthiness of different shapes and materials back in the early 80's. I know a lot about microwave technology.

Perhaps you are confusing the McCain with one of the new Zumwalt class destroyers.

"Despite being 40% larger than an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, the radar cross-section is more akin to that of a fishing boat, according to a spokesman for Naval Sea Systems Command. The tumblehome hull and composite deckhouse reduce radar return. Overall, the destroyer's angular build makes it "50 times harder to spot on radar than an ordinary destroyer."

So the extremely expensive, weird-looking Zumwalt has a "radar cross-section akin to that of a fishing boat", which I'm sure could be detected by nearby marine radar. The old, conventional steel McCain would have a much larger radar cross-section. How much more I can't say with certainty, but if it's twice as good as a conventional destroyer, that's still 25 fishing boats.

Regarding the Zumwalt class, I was glad to read "To improve detection in non-combat situations by other vessels, such as traversing busy shipping channels or operating in inclement weather, the Navy is testing adding onboard reflectors to improve the design's radar visibility."

Someone's thinking.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 03:43
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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There is absolutely no excuse for a military vessel to be in collision with a civilian vessel during peacetime operations. The military vessel should have far superior situational awareness and maneouverability and more manpower devoted to watchkeeping. The possibility of a technical failure should be anticipated and considered before engaging in any maneouvering that might cause danger the the warship or other vessels nearby.
warships nearly always have two or more engines and multiple redundant systems, so loss of an engine or rudder control should be little more than an an anoyance. Cargo ships with single engines and limited maneouverabilty have a much more difficult time if the engine or steering system becomes compromised.

I watched horrified and fascinated as a racing yacht approached and disappeared under the bows of a supertanker I was serving on. The yacht skipper obviously subscribed to the rule that steam gives way to sail. Not on a half million ton tanker it doesn't. Additionally, the tanker screened the wind from the yacht's sails as it got close, so it lost speed trying to cross ahead of us. The yacht survived because it was lifted and thrown to out the far side by the bow wave from the bulbous bow. The engine remained at "Full Ahead" throughout this incident because stopping the engine would not have reduced the speed of the ship for several miles and reversing the engine would have torn the propeller off the ship. Entry in the log, but that was the end of the story as far as I know. But it could easily have been a tragic accident with multiple fatalities. Probably wouldn't have even put a dent in the bow of the tanker. The odd whale we hit from time to time never did.

As in flying, a bit of common sense needs to be applied when interpreting the rules.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 10:06
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Feels like Watch needs training a la Father Ted with Dougal on "Near.............. Far"
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 10:11
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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What's the differences between the different fleets training wise?

Are some fleets in the USN more prone to accidents than others?
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 19:33
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
...
warships nearly always have two or more engines and multiple redundant systems, so loss of an engine or rudder control should be little more than an an anoyance....
I have seen reports that the 'incident' may have involved loss of steering control.

Given the mechanical redundancy and reports of minimal training it would not surprise me if the root cause is a relatively minor mechanical failure made far worse by inappropriate crew response. Pulling the breaker on the good system or similar confusion.

This of course is not unheard of in aviation with a root cause of lack of fundamental skills needed to deal with a serious but recoverable issue such as temporary loss of airspeed in an untrained for scenario.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 20:14
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Given the mechanical redundancy and reports of minimal training it would not surprise me if the root cause is a relatively minor mechanical failure made far worse by inappropriate crew response. Pulling the breaker on the good system or similar confusion.


This of course is not unheard of in aviation with a root cause of lack of fundamental skills needed to deal with a serious but recoverable issue such as temporary loss of airspeed in an untrained for scenario.
Interesting comparison.

Does more crew (Navy) equate to more confusion if something goes wrong?

In aviation CVRs my sense is that two crew mostly remain calm throughout, while adding members not flying significantly increases the tension.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 22:41
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
What's the differences between the different fleets training wise?

Are some fleets in the USN more prone to accidents than others?
It looks like the drivers of Arleigh Burkes are quite prone to crashing!

S-D
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 23:40
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Here's an interesting report on the Fitzgerald collision. It has a lot of detail on the aftermath, diagrams and photos.

A few items from the timeline: the collision alarm sounded for 2 seconds- after the collision. Initial report was made via personal cell phone, 50 minutes after the collision.

Navy Releases Harrowing Report On Fitzgerald Collision, Begins Punishing Sailors
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 01:45
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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In aviation CVRs my sense is that two crew mostly remain calm throughout, while adding members not flying significantly increases the tension
One piston airline captain was queried why he always wore white gloves. So I can tell which hands are mine when things go wrong.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 14:52
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by merch View Post
Does the USN, or RN put their watch keepers/standers and Captains through any form of anticollision training in a simulator? I was thinking of where the OOW is put into increasingly complex situations. Also is Bridge Team Management is taught and practiced?
Yes to both, regarding "what is taught." I also taught my son how to drive. Followed up by some lessons from a driving school. He still had a fender bender a year later. "What is taught" is only part of it.
As to Admirals and cover butts.
The Navy had Kirk Lippold's back after USS Cole (short answer was that based on Navy policy at the time to trust host nations, Cole was more or less set up for a surprise attack vulnerability) but as things went, his promotion to Captain kept getting derailed by our political sorts in Congress as they were wrangling with the President and others.

I know Kirk Lippold. He's a good man who got screwed over by Senator Warner of Virginia after what happened to USS Cole. A common sense, grounded guy. In this case, the Admirals did their investigating and ruled in his favor, and then the politics got involved. (I've seen it work the other way too, where the Navy gave someone the knife and it took a Congressional investigation to get to the heart of the matter. As I staffed a few of those cases, it's interesting and sometimes frustrating, to see what happens when the arse covering drill is put into action at high levels. Truth is the first casualty far too often).

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 29th Aug 2017 at 15:17.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 15:01
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MFC_Fly View Post
What about if the thing you run into is designed to have a very low radar cross-section, is not on AIS and running with no lights at night?
Why do you assume that they are runinng with no lights at night? That wasn't common at all, peacetime steaming, when I was in the Navy. It was rare, and saved for exercises.
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