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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

Old 22nd Aug 2017, 12:59
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Two's in View Post
From a threat awareness position, surely the potential risk of letting any vessel get too close to a warship is well documented. I find it hard to believe that somebody on the warship wasn't even remotely curious about what the intent of the merchant vessel was, given the current global threat level. This was almost certainly a tragic accident, but for any would-be terrorists we have proven again just how easy it is to take out a warship. Thank goodness that particular area has no track record of bad guys hijacking ships, otherwise the USN might look decidedly careless in their threat awareness.
The Alnic was proceeding normally south-westerly at 9.6 knots along a busy shipping lane at the time of the collision

To edit your post...

From a common sense awareness position, surely the potential risk of crossing a busy shipping lane is well documented. I find it hard to believe that somebody on the warship wasn't even remotely switched on enough about what the intent of the merchant vessel proceeding normally along a shipping lane was, given the recent history of USN collisions at sea. This was almost certainly a tragic accident, but for any would-be terrorists we have proven again just how easy it is to take out a warship that does not seem to be aware of it's surroundings. Thank goodness that particular area has shipping lanes, although it does make the USN look decidedly careless in their situational awareness.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 16:07
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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The idea of suddenly crossing a busy shipping lane may not have been an actual "idea". A friend living in the area says the word in the region is that the McCain lost its steering. Followed up in quick time of a failure of the back-up/auxiliary system. How true? Who knows.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 16:34
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
The idea of suddenly crossing a busy shipping lane may not have been an actual "idea". A friend living in the area says the word in the region is that the McCain lost its steering. Followed up in quick time of a failure of the back-up/auxiliary system. How true? Who knows.
Well if that IS the case then the collision happened in the middle of the shipping lane, so they had plenty of time to put out warnings on Ch16, switch on their AIS, nav lights, many other lights, etc - basically everything in their power to warn those in the shipping lane of their presence and the danger!
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 16:56
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Quite agree they would have plenty of time (it it is what actually happened) but of course a huge lump of single screw tanker takes time to either turn or stop. Wouldn't there be a Singapore pilot on board or do they arrive later?
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 17:00
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Quite agree they would have plenty of time (it it is what actually happened) but of course a huge lump of single screw tanker takes time to either turn or stop. Wouldn't there be a Singapore pilot on board or do they arrive later?
You haven't watched the video link in post #20 have you?
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 17:02
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Quote: 'The Alnic was proceeding normally south-westerly at 9.6 knots', @ MFC Fly.

If this is true then the McCain was at the moment of collision heading south or south-east, (not as stated towards Singapore) and we can work out the angle at which the two collided.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 17:17
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jolihokistix View Post
Quote: 'The Alnic was proceeding normally south-westerly at 9.6 knots', @ MFC Fly.

If this is true then the McCain was at the moment of collision heading south or south-east, (not as stated towards Singapore) and we can work out the angle at which the two collided.
What do you mean "If this is true"? Watch the video linked to in post #20

Also, where the collision took place was at a point where the shipping lane closed the coast to the north with a much wider stretch of water to the south, and to the east of Singapore where the straights start. The McCain could easily have come down the east coast of the peninsula and planned to cross the lanes to the quieter southern waters before transiting towards Singapore port. The shipping lane runs NE-SW and you must cross at 90 deg to the lane, hence the probable SE heading for the McCain at the time of the collision.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 17:42
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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The video in post #20 is impressive, and shows just how very congested that stretch of water is. Interesting to see the actions of the Alnic after the collision, her clear turn to get out of the shipping lane, and then turn to a parallel course. Pretty impressive the way she turned and got clear of what looked to be a very congested area. It was also interesting to see how all the traffic in the shipping lane took avoiding action.

TBH, I'm beginning to wonder why on earth navy vessels, of all flavours, don't have AIS. They clearly don't want it turned on when engaged in military operations, but it would seem to give a significantly reduced risk of an accident, or at least the ability to accurately reconstruct the cause of an accident, if they had AIS turned o when operating in congested areas like this.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 18:02
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Never mind the AIS, but the Voyage Data Recorder on the Alnic MC will tell the full story.
With min 24 hours stored it will hopefully not be overwritten.
I suppose the US don't require one of those either?
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 20:58
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The video in post #20 is impressive, and shows just how very congested that stretch of water is. Interesting to see the actions of the Alnic after the collision, her clear turn to get out of the shipping lane, and then turn to a parallel course. Pretty impressive the way she turned and got clear of what looked to be a very congested area. It was also interesting to see how all the traffic in the shipping lane took avoiding action.

TBH, I'm beginning to wonder why on earth navy vessels, of all flavours, don't have AIS. They clearly don't want it turned on when engaged in military operations, but it would seem to give a significantly reduced risk of an accident, or at least the ability to accurately reconstruct the cause of an accident, if they had AIS turned o when operating in congested areas like this.
That's a bit like suggesting all airliners should be logged into Flightradar24.
If it was a steering gear breakdown then, as then, it should have been brought to light well before the collision, when the ops room surface plot "should" have mentioned a closing CPA. Steering gear breaks often/mostly only become apparent at the point of needing to actually steer. It then takes approx 10 mins to fully close up "tiller flat" in order to provide manual steering (In a UK T23 and the once had T22s). The Yanks have this too.

I suspect the USN maybe taking their perceived country's superpower status for granted and a few laurels being rested upon.

In my experience, US warships have far more people closed up on the bridge during a cruising watch too. An average UK warship cruising watch bridge compliment would be - Officer of the watch, QM/Bosun's mate (Steering/brews) and a comms rating.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 22:24
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I suspect the USN maybe taking their perceived country's superpower status for granted and a few laurels being rested upon.


How does it feel to no longer be a Super Power?

Losing Laurels does cramp one's style a bit I guess.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 22:30
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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It'll be interesting to find out how many berks there were on the bridge and in the control room of this Arleigh.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 00:16
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
How does it feel to no longer be a Super Power?

Losing Laurels does cramp one's style a bit I guess.
I'm not "yank bashing" Sasless.

Just voicing opinion on having been RN and also crosspolled onto a couple of USN war canoes.

US Officer on exchange Lt Raaaaaaaaberts (Lt Roberts) HMS Coventry 1997:
"Why can't we spot on GPEOD"
"It's U/S sir"
"Whattaya mean it's U/S?"
"It's US Sir...it's shit!"....cue meltdown
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 00:56
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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I hear the dead sailors remains have been recovered - I wish them a speedy trip home to their families.

Perhaps we could all show them some respect.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 01:28
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Those taking a swing at the US might recall the worlds once foremost navy has likewise erred.

HMS Nottingham returning home following a Pacific cruise, having found Lord Howe Island by feel.



Organisations have safety departments because it's a never ending task imparting hard won lessons to new comers, and finding why the latest catastrophe has happened. Failures in the teaching process, new twist at work?

A little humility please.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 02:09
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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From CNN:
The US Navy intends to remove Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin as the commander of the US 7th Fleet, based in Yokosuka, Japan, according to a US official. This follows an incident Monday in which the guided-missile destroyer USS John S. McCain collided with a merchant ship.
Sooner than expected.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 04:48
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Res ipsa loquiter perhaps?
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 05:26
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for that reminder, Megan. Memories are short. Keeping things safe is a never-ending battle.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 07:20
  #79 (permalink)  
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wbd, it was ever thus.

When it is all plain sailing and nothing happens (metaphor) one can lead with a light touch. When things remain calm for a number of years, that light touch frequently persists with leaders untested and staff becoming relaxed and comfortable in their roles. When the proverbial arrives weakness become apparent. Order books not amended and unread, drills not practised or undemanding and so on.

Where leadership from the top is not apparent a new commander lower down the tree is unpopular if they try to run a tight ship when others are enjoying an easy life.

An effective leader may use a light touch but has also to be known not to tolerate short cuts and slackness. It can be epitomised as management by walking about rather than management by meetings.

Commander walks in, throws hat in corner, FIRE IN THAT CORNER, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT. Rating grabs fire extinguisher, pulls pin, puts fire in hat out.

Speechless but satisfied.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 07:29
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Does the USN, or RN put their watch keepers/standers and Captains through any form of anticollision training in a simulator? I was thinking of where the OOW is put into increasingly complex situations. Also is Bridge Team Management is taught and practiced?

Last edited by merch; 23rd Aug 2017 at 07:31. Reason: Grammer
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