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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

Old 21st Aug 2017, 17:42
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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And don't forget that the Arleigh Burke class was designed to have a reduced radar cross section. So on the merch comnav radar it may have appeared as a very small radar contact with nothing on AIS to confirm it as a real vessel (and possibly no lights showing from the McCain). This could easily have caused some confusion amongst the crew of the Alnic.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 17:43
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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I try not to be dead right . I will give way rather than be dead right . I will not bore you with the amount of times I have given way , as I would rather dodge an idiot , just in case I am playing the idiot .
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 18:13
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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I think the yanks need to take another look at their officer of the watch directions to the ops room. In the RN, upon taking up watch, an OOW will issue instructions to the surface picture compilers such as: "sweep to 20 mile, report ALL contacts at 10 miles with a CPA (closest point of approach) of 2 miles or less. 20-10 & 2 pretty much standard one.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 18:43
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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I remember HMAS Melbourne sailing along the Johore Straits for repair with a twisted bow when she had a disagreement with another American destroyer, USS Frank E Evans.

Mind you, she had demolished HMAS Voyager beforehand.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 19:12
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Mariners forum

This is what those who know about maritime matters are saying about the collision-

The U.S. Navy does it again, this time in the Malacca Straits - Ships Nostalgia
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 20:34
  #46 (permalink)  
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Super VC10, nothing significant in that link except a little more detail but the conclusions drawn are similar to those here. There is one additional fact but that is apparently ruled out - steering failure but suppose fixed before the incident.

What might be significant is the lack of AIS, the stealth design, and low viz navigation lights.

Some craft with low radar signatures carry additional radar reflectors. The F117 also carried additional radar enhancements. Do stealthy warships also have signature enhancers?
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 21:37
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Lack of AIS on the warship is irrelevant. India band radar on the bridge & the ops room should have clearly shown the merch.

Dunno about the command structure / routines of merchantmen but I'm led to believe many are fully automated with probably only 3 or 4 people awake during the early hours.

I'm starting to suspect maybe there is an institutionalised attitude amongst the yank navy - along the lines of the apocryphal story of the USN ship and the Lighthouse.

HMS Montrose ploughed into the back of FGS Emden once, when just outside the breakwater at Plymouth. Emden was at flying stations - helo rotors running. The Fx part of ship hands were very lucky - bits of the rotor were embedded in the 4.5 housing. We cracked on with BOST and the Emden went back alongside.
It was due to a machy breakdown - steering gear failiure whilst negotiating the exercise ;'swept channel' in formation.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 23:30
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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The Queen Mary cut a light cruiser the HMS Curacao in half. Dented her bow.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 23:37
  #49 (permalink)  
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The merchant vessel might have only been doing 10 knots, but she stopped fairly abruptly.
There must have been something of a jolt on both vessels.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 00:03
  #50 (permalink)  
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From a threat awareness position, surely the potential risk of letting any vessel get too close to a warship is well documented. I find it hard to believe that somebody on the warship wasn't even remotely curious about what the intent of the merchant vessel was, given the current global threat level. This was almost certainly a tragic accident, but for any would-be terrorists we have proven again just how easy it is to take out a warship. Thank goodness that particular area has no track record of bad guys hijacking ships, otherwise the USN might look decidedly careless in their threat awareness.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 00:21
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Have seen reports on some of the reliable news sites that seaborne traffic in this area is expected to double in the next few years.

Are shipyards worldwide really laying down that many hulls?
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 01:50
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Now being reported that McCain lost steering before the collision.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 05:35
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ex_matelot View Post

Dunno about the command structure / routines of merchantmen but I'm led to believe many are fully automated with probably only 3 or 4 people awake during the early hours.
In open waters and depending on classification, one or two men on the bridge, none in the engine room.
In confined waters, with pilot on board or when manouvering, two men pluss Captain on bridge, two men pluss Chief Engineer and possibly Electrician in engine control room. All at Captain's, Chief Engineer's discretion.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 06:18
  #54 (permalink)  
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Sultan, does your info pre-date that which admitted steering problems but said it had been rectified prior to the collision? Or does it admit continuing problems?

See #46 above.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 08:46
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Sultan View Post
Now being reported that McCain lost steering before the collision.
If that's the case, then it would seem that the blame may well depend on whether or not the McCain gave the correct signals that she was restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, or even disabled, as a consequence of the steering failure.

Might not have changed the outcome, given the limited ability for other ships to take avoiding action in what is a pretty busy seaway, and what may have been a sudden failure, but it would at least show the competence of the ship's captain and crew.

However, if the steering problem had been noted before crossing the TSS, then there may well be questions to answer as to why the McCain's captain decided to continue to cross such a busy area, knowing, or suspecting, that there was a risk of further steering problems.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 09:12
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Merchant vessels are fitted with back up emergency steering, the reason why there are so many present in the engine control room. If the steering gear fails, it can be controlled directly in the steering gear room, communication to the bridge via intercom.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 09:14
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Surely though the sensible thing would be if your having pointing in the direction you want issues, in a extremely busy traffic conditions the sensible thing would be.

Light yourself up like Christmas tree.

Light yourself up electronically using a radar reflector and your AIS transponder.

And then get your self as soon as possible to a nice quiet spot to allow your gingers to lamp hell out of the steering gear.

Just an idea from someone that sails small things.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 10:22
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
In open waters and depending on classification, one or two men on the bridge, none in the engine room.
In confined waters, with pilot on board or when manouvering, two men pluss Captain on bridge, two men pluss Chief Engineer and possibly Electrician in engine control room. All at Captain's, Chief Engineer's discretion.
Per
I'm ex MN and usually ran my own bridge watch with 1 lookout.I did my own Radar watch and steering was in auto, course being altered by turning just one Knob.In harbour areas Master would be on bridge and steering in manual this would also apply in restricted visibility.I personally found too many people on the bridge distracting.VHF radio would also be monitored at the same time.

Colin.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 10:52
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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One wonders if they maintain a "sterile" bridge when the Captain starts sweating.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 12:52
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Light yourself up like Christmas tree.
To the contrary....ensuring that Christmas Tree concept does not obscure the Navigation Lights aboard your vessel.

Along with being seen....it helps if others can determine your course by those lights.

As to the Radar Reflector....and AIS...absolutely!
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