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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

Old 22nd Sep 2017, 09:07
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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The primary aids should be the mark 1 eyeball, radar/ARPA. Which the USN already has, it is lack of knowledge and training that causes collisions And of course mechanical failure.
This is exactly the same as TCAS on civilian aircraft. And the primary method of collision avoidance is the mark one eye ball in theory as well.

Experience and data though are pretty much universal that TCAS is better at keeping lumps of metal from connecting than the mark one eye ball.

In fact for pretty much the last 15 years the move in CAT is to follow the TCAS and ask questions later even if you think you have the conflicting traffic in sight and you think its safe.

There is though a conflict in views over the reliance on TCAS in this manner. It tends to be the older most experienced pilots that don't buy into this method.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 12:12
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Navy Collisions Are Its Own Fault

Systemic analysis done that points to what I suspect is a root cause.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 22:42
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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This is exactly the same as TCAS on civilian aircraft. And the primary method of collision avoidance is the mark one eye ball in theory as well.

Experience and data though are pretty much universal that TCAS is better at keeping lumps of metal from connecting than the mark one eye ball.
There is one major difference between AIS and TCAS and that is that TCAS is an active system that 'negotiates' actions between potential colliders. (Vast simplification I know).
That is part of what makes it effective since it removes the 'both up or both down' actions possible in manual avoidance, I know there are rules for what action to take but I suspect which one to follow is not always obvious.

From what I have read about AIS (mostly here) it shows location data (with caveats mentioned by others on accuracy and mis-programming) but does not by itself provide collision warning/avoidance data or automatically coordinate actions.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 23:52
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MurphyWasRight View Post
From what I have read about AIS (mostly here) it shows location data (with caveats mentioned by others on accuracy and mis-programming) but does not by itself provide collision warning/avoidance data or automatically coordinate actions.
No, AIS and radar with "automatic radar plotting aid" (ARPA) both compute "closest point of approach" or CPA and give warnings. I'm just looking at a Raymarine radar page, here is some text to give you an idea of how good ARPA is (and thanks Merch for mentioning ARPA):

"Target has been acquired (red circle overlay) using MARPA and is being tracked by your radar. Speed and bearing of the target are shown and the target's heading is shown as a thin red line at 65º .

The tracked target has now moved into the previously set guard zone around your vessel and has triggered the dangerous target alarm, seen on screen, and set off an audible alarm.

The alarm has been acknowledged and the target's (now overlaid with a red triangle to note possible danger) closest point of approach (CPA) to your vessel is shown on screen as 0.376nm and time to closest point of approach (TCPA) is 4 mins 20 secs."

The link Super VC-10 posted has this to say about that:
“Every boat on the Gulf of Maine has a radar on it. When there’s another boat within a mile, or two miles, or five miles and an alarm goes off and shows up on your GPS. How in the world does a billion-dollar destroyer not know there’s a freighter closing in on it? I don’t understand how this could possibly happen,” said Sen. Angus King (I-Maine). “I’ve talked to Maine lobstermen and they’re scratching their heads. They can tell when there’s a flock of seagulls off their bow.”

Which begs the questions- does the Navy not have these features, do they not use them, or are they ignoring them? It's like my car- it has a gas gauge, AND when it gets low an alarm sounds AND an annunciator lights. There is no excuse for "accidentally" running out of gas.

Last edited by PrivtPilotRadarTech; 24th Sep 2017 at 23:53. Reason: typo
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 07:48
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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PPRT, I know nothing about marine systems, but from what you describe it sounds slightly similar to TCAS. That system provides pilots with a plot and aural and visual warnings based on CPA. It also provides a suggested course of action in regards to collision avoidance.

Sadly though it all depends on human decision making in the end. See Uberlingen as a prime example.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 08:30
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst we are all pointiing out the problems and failings of the USN, lets not ignore the Merchant Ships.

They will both have had ARPA and AIS, I suggest that lack of training and experience may be at fault there as well. As I've stated earlier if all ships were obeying the ColRegs a collision wouldn't have happened, we too have "children of the megenta line"
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 13:37
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Then again this quote (if true) from the article PPRT linked may explain why the merchant ships did not take early avoidance maneuvers:
“Neither [the Fitzgerald nor McCain] was showing Automatic Identification System (AIS) data at the time of their accident,” retired Royal Australian Navy commodore Sam Bateman asserts. “This was done to keep their identity as American warships secret.”
BTW: Point taken on AIS/ARPA showing threats, I was more focussed on the 'cooperative' nature of TCAS that provides coordinated maneuver instructions.

Anyone care to speculate on the relative time available for collision avoidance?

In absolute time things happen much quicker in the air, but on sea it takes a lot longer to maneuver.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 14:26
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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TCAS only does that when you have two mode S transponders talking to each other and both fitted with TCAS.

It will still identify and resolve threats with mode A for threats and also resolve for mode C even if the other planes don't have TCAS fitted.

In these cases they seem to have been flying without even squirting anything so only a primary return on the merchant ships radar.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 14:44
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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USS Fitzgerald Repair Will Take More Than a Year; USS John S. McCain Fix Could Be Shorter | Maritime Herald
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:35
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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A ship with a design incorporating "stealth techniques" and with the AIS switched off crashes in heavy traffic.
Strange that.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:39
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Strange becomes normal when they repeat it. Especially for the mad.

One of the definitions of madness is to repeat an experiment and expect different results.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 04:38
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Murph
Deep sea the radar/ARPA will probably be on 24mile range. Targets depending on size and aspect will be plotted at that range. CPA etc will be available about 3 mins later. A general rule, again deep sea, is action to prevent a collision should be taken by at least 5 miles. At 3 miles it starts to get twitchy if the give way vessel has still not taken any action. Ships speed, generally, are in the 12 to 18knt range. So you can do the maths.

The above are intended as a general guide only and depends if it is a head on, crossing or overtaking situation. In areas of high traffic the ranges are smaller before action is taken but the bridge manning level will be different.

Last edited by merch; 26th Sep 2017 at 04:40. Reason: Clarification
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Old 1st Nov 2017, 17:37
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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The US Navy is intent upon pushing the blame downhill....as usual the Admiral's Club wishes not to carry the bucket for any part of the trip.


Report finds deadly Navy collisions were "avoidable" - ABC News
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Old 1st Nov 2017, 18:37
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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[quoteThe US Navy is intent upon pushing the blame downhill....as usual the Admiral's Club wishes not to carry the bucket for any part of the trip.
[/quote]

I don't see it that way.

The info release cites only causal factors, not blame and no final corrective action..

The admirals and above are responsible for preventing future occurrences and must identify actions that preclude a repeat. Firing naval personnel only precludes these same individual from repeating the error.

Last edited by lomapaseo; 1st Nov 2017 at 20:54.
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Old 1st Nov 2017, 18:58
  #215 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
must identify actions that preclude a repeat.
But it happened twice . . .
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Old 1st Nov 2017, 20:25
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
The US Navy is intent upon pushing the blame downhill....as usual the Admiral's Club wishes not to carry the bucket for any part of the trip.


Report finds deadly Navy collisions were "avoidable" - ABC News
A merchant vessel collision caused by monkeys on the bridge could hardly be blamed on the ship owner, unless he hired non certified monkeys.
So far it seems to be a case of too many people, too disorganized and too lacking in basic seamanship. Oh well, I'm not around them waters anymore.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 00:00
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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LP,

Dig back in the thread and read up on all the reasons why the Ship's Watch Standers might not be properly trained and have enough hands on experience to peform in a safe, proper, efficient manner.

Computerized training, floods of mandatory non-seamanship training that deprive the new folks sufficient time and priority for sea duty.

All decisions made by Admirals and adversely impacted the readiness and capacities of the Crews....but not one single Admiral shall ever stand and admit the Management is culpable in that situation.

There will be Captains relieved....other Officers and NCO's having their careers ended....but not one Admiral will walk the plank over it.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 00:30
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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There will be Captains relieved....other Officers and NCO's having their careers ended....but not one Admiral will walk the plank over it.
Shit floats.

The USN has yuuge amount of that.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 02:03
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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Seems to me that replacing the head of US Pacific forces, a post that has always been held by an admiral, with an Air Force general is an indication that some senior heads deservedly rolled.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 02:20
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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The Fleet Commander was two weeks from Retirement when he got the heave ho...with full retirement and no demotion.

Please don't throw me in that Briar Patch brer Bear!
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