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A LOT of things I never knew about the Concorde crash.

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A LOT of things I never knew about the Concorde crash.

Old 22nd Aug 2017, 13:50
  #41 (permalink)  
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gruntie -
This makes an interesting read: whether or not there is any truth in it though remains debatable.
"The betrayal of Concorde"

Quite a read, and yes, it's always a matter of crowbarring out (not just cherry-picking) the bias of human emotion.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 05:30
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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MNRAF
It may be the direction the current is setting or pushing you is more important than the direction it came from. Likewise the direction the wind has come from is more relevant, from meteorological and practical point of view.

Last edited by merch; 23rd Aug 2017 at 05:31. Reason: Spelling
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 08:42
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Once we were in the air it seems that the two up front would get comfy and go to sleep because it was a frequent occurrence for the seatbelt signs to be turned on after a minor bump and left on for hours.
Not necessarily the two up front, it was often a request from the cabin crew, so that THEY could get some rest !
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 09:50
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by merch View Post
MNRAF
It may be the direction the current is setting or pushing you is more important than the direction it came from. Likewise the direction the wind has come from is more relevant, from meteorological and practical point of view.
A very good point.
I was eng, not deck
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 13:42
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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My Air Fraaanc-uh story.
Early 1970's, first AF flight out of Paris to LHR, a 707, and not very many pax.
Took off, "trolly dolly" showed up with one serving of OJ and disappeared into the front of the 'plane never to be seen again while airborne.
Landing at LHR we floated and floated..... and floated, then reverse buckets came out and we landed and roared past the last runway exit to the very end, where we did a U-turn and backtracked...... nary a word from the crew.
As we de-planed the "trolly dolly" (looking slightly flustered) was at the very front, seemingly having appeared from behind the cockpit curtain.
Endless possibilities have sprung to mind over the years....
f
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 20:12
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
The average PPL would not, I claim, knowingly take off over weight and with CofG outside limits and with a tail wind.

I've seen something similar by a PPL!

Many years ago a small 2/4 seater took off from Wick to Varga, Faeroes with a tailwind. Estimating 2:30hrs with 4:30hr endurance. Varga was RED and TAFFing RED. Scottish Control notified D&D straight away. D&D suggested Right turn to Fair Isle, Zero Tailwind/Zero Headwind, just X-Wind from Starboard, strip long enough to land!, but not long enough to take off, so a recovery would have had to be by boat at some time later, but crew and aircraft would have been safe. Rescue XX (can't remember the C/S this far on) could have been scrambled from Stornoway to shadow them in - at worst a few minutes in the drink = happy days!

Crew remained defiant and decided after handover to Reykavik ACC, when overhead Varga, to push on with tailwind to make Icelandic mainland........

THEY SWAM THE LAST MILE!!!!!!! (Luckily Summer Time!!)
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 23:21
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ex Cargo Clown View Post
I hope to god you're not a pilot. Put simply wind direction is where it's aiming at, runway heading is where it's going to. (Taught on my first PPL lesson)
I hope to god you're not a pilot either, how can where the wind is "aiming at" be the wind direction? Wind direction is where the wind is blowing from so how on earth can that be where it's aiming at?

If the wind was an arrow and I was aiming it down 270, the direction it would be coming from would be 090.

Also "runway heading is where the wind is going to" So in your explanation runways always head into wind do they? What happens if there is no wind? Does the runway not go anywhere?
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 07:05
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ceeb View Post
Also "runway heading is where the wind is going to" So in your explanation runways always head into wind do they?
That's not what he said. Read the message again........
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 07:59
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Concours77 View Post
Hello. That there is "nothing new" is not the issue. The issue is one of perspective, and a too frequent "latch on" to a handy and seemingly sole source of trouble.

I suppose in another ten years time we will be blessed with a similar summary re another AF fatal. 447.
Er, that's pretty much what I was hinting it - the interesting to hear it from an experienced pilots perespective.

S-D
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 13:04
  #50 (permalink)  
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Not a pilot, just a humble Avionics chap who specialises in navigational matters.

My understanding is that all vectors are expressed with respect to Zero degrees (due north).

Thus an aircraft flying on a heading of 090M at 150 Knots IAS for a landing on runway 09 with a wind of 270M at 10 knots will find himself making 140 knots groundspeed. With no cross-wind component, there will be no drift and in addition the aircraft track will be the same as its heading (as will the 'course').

All this 'going to' and 'coming from' is so unscientific. In navigation, please stick to vectors so we simpletons can understand what you mean.
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 13:12
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ER no - ground speed of 160 knots. Wind from 270 degrees so 10 knot tailwind.
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 14:18
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by On eyre View Post
ER no - ground speed of 160 knots. Wind from 270 degrees so 10 knot tailwind.
Never mind

Last edited by bedsted; 24th Aug 2017 at 19:46. Reason: pointless
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Old 24th Aug 2017, 14:39
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by k3k3 View Post
Just thinking a north wind comes from the north, a south-westerly comes from the south west, so why wouldn't a 080 wind come from 080.
Yes, that is correct. What you're missing is that the wind BLOWS, it does not suck. Thus a wind blowing FROM the east means it is traveling TO the west.
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 13:05
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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I do seem to remember....

.....back in the '80s there were frequent "misunderstandings" shall we say when it came to nuclear fall out reporting in exercises. They were caused by the fact that the Army reported it as "wind blows TO" and the Navy and RAF reported it as "wind blows FROM". What I can't remember was how the conflict was resolved, if indeed it ever was.

The Ancient Mariner
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Old 1st Dec 2017, 15:55
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Many thanks LR.... genuinely interesting... and from a totally credible and believable source...

Watched it in its entirety enthralled.
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Old 1st Dec 2017, 19:39
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
The average PPL would not, I claim, knowingly take off over weight and with CofG outside limits and with a tail wind.


So there must have been more to it? Was it generally understood amongst Concorde pilots that it's fine, you can get away with these things, we do them most flights?

No...I don't believe so.

However....Marty ( the Capt ) had a bit of a reputation as someone who loved taking a risk in his personal life - he was the first ( ?? ) person to windsurf across the Atlantic, amongst many other such daredevil events - and it was often whispered / quietly suggested that a couple of his decisions that day were typically Marty-esque and would not have been made the same way by other AF Capts.

Then again, hindsight has always been a wonderful gift....
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Old 1st Dec 2017, 20:26
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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I've flown with people who were difficult to challenge. One individual stands out, as he was brusque, intolerant of criticism, and consequently created an atmosphere on the flight deck that made it difficult for anyone in the RH seat to question anything.
To VP959’s comment, having been both a F/E (S/O here in the US) and flown with F/Es, a three-man cockpit can have a significantly different dynamic. Two can “out vote” one person. I’ve had F/Es, that I respected, politely ask a question that changed the direction I was going. Similarity, I had a an F/O take my comment on a B727 A system failure and tell the captain what he needed to do.

GF
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Old 2nd Dec 2017, 16:30
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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too muxh nostalgia about Concorde, sad that it crashed and in sad circumstances-accidents happen-theres almost always a ' if it happened 30 seconds later' or missed by x meters element in accidents -the holes dont quite line up and often no one knows what nearly happened.

Sadly Concorde was at or past its sell by date and a real anachronism and pointless for AB to divert resources to support something that never made a penny profit in real as opposed to fantasy world terms. Don't get me wrong I loved watching it and Isaw it most every day-and heard it on a few more days too .

While airline execs might appear heartless they have to focus on costs because the industry eats money like almost no other and thats what drives them, take the A380 vs 777 issue. Pax comfort, A 380 wins by a country mile - the 777 in my view is also a specially bad aircraft for comfort as well but which one sells by far the most, the triple, it is a fantastic bit of engineering and very cost effective but it is really a 737 on steroids.(tic)

So sorry but lets leave the dear old Concorde to rest in peace as great concept and a wonderful visionary idea that two countries could work together well and that helped immensely in the success of Airbus which surely everyone , at least those of us on the right side of the Atlantic should applaud as great commercial and engineering achievement.
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Old 2nd Dec 2017, 17:00
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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I would love to know whether the final recommendation resulted in a few French equivalents of the P45.

4.2.4
The technical investigation brought to light various malfunctions relating to the operation of the aircraft, for example the use of non-updated flight preparation data, the absence of archiving of certain documents or incomplete baggage management. Equally, omitting the left bogie spacer was a consequence of non-respect of established procedures and of the failure to use the appropriate tool. Consequently, the BEA recommends that:
• the DGAC undertake an audit of Concorde operational and maintenance
conditions within Air France.
As a Brit, I am sorry to say that from observation over the years, the same kind of criticisms could have been directed at BA, and probably still can be. (If you doubt this, as far as maintenance is concerned at least, have a read of this.)
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Old 2nd Dec 2017, 20:14
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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I had the good fortune to visit the Concorde at the Brooklands Museum last weekend, and to have as a guide a very charming lady who had spent a lot of time as Concorde cabin crew, who really made it come alive. It got me wondering when - even without the accident, 9/11 or any other external event - Concorde would have had to be withdrawn.

On one of my few Concorde flights, I remember the FE saying that the avionics were ancient and barely maintainable (this was 1999), but couldn't be upgraded because of the cost of recertification. At some point surely parts would just be flat out unavailable (e.g. old transistors and even passive components). And (had it managed to last that long) next gen approaches would surely have been the end.

One of the exhibits in the Concorde at Brooklands was an AI. I couldn't believe it. Other AIs I've seen are just gyros. This one had over a dozen tiny circuit boards all packed with discrete transistors. It must have been a nightmare to maintain by 2003.
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