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Is it time the UK police were generally armed

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Is it time the UK police were generally armed

Old 19th Aug 2017, 19:09
  #41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I think you'd have a problem trying to convince an employment tribunal that it was reasonable to sack police officers because they refused such a drastic change to their conditions of employment.
.
You presume. It was never suggested that there would be a unilateral change in ToS. More likely voluntary for those service and compulsory for those wishing to join.

Who knows, some people who would not feel safe unarmed may be more comfortable armed.

When armed guards were introduced in to the RAF and it was decided to arm WRAF, though they may have been RAF by then, those who had joined when there was no armed commitment were only required to bear arms if they volunteered so to do.
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 19:32
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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You've got terrorists.
That's reason enough.
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 20:14
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Many, many times more people are killed on our roads, often as a consequence of the stupidity of others, than are ever murdered...

Before making any decision, we should look at the real risk...
Exactly my reasoning behind arming speed cameras rather than policemen.
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 20:33
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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The current situation with armed officers is interesting as there are fewer of them around now than in 2010 before the ConDems started cutting numbers despite the Tories much vaunted pledge to increase numbers made in 2015. Also due to the overall reduction in police numbers over the period each newly trained AFO takes another unarmed PC away from other duties meaning fewer response, traffic, neighbourhood or DCs.

About the closest thing you'll get to more firearms is the roll out of more Taser trained officers but even they will be few and far between with just a handful being available from 0300 on a Tuesday as an example in my force.
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 21:05
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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So should the UK Police be armed? - damn right they should, they are there to protect the Public and at the moment are not fully able to do that.
So how's that working out then in places such the US, Nigeria, etc etc.
I have long held the view that if it is necessary to have people on our streets, then they should be soldiers. It's what they do.
And doesn't it make you throw up every time you hear politicians, media etc querying a "shoot to kill" policy? A lesson learned in my basic training in the mid 1960s has stuck with me ever since then. "You only ever point your weapon at a person if you intend to kill that person".
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 21:14
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Basic difference between a soldier in war and a policeman on the beat......
Aim of war is to kill your enemy - so point and shoot.
Aim of a cop pulling his gun on someone armed is first - deterrence and if that fails and there is still a threat - shoot.
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 21:16
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
So how's that working out then in places such the US, Nigeria, etc etc.
I have long held the view that if it is necessary to have people on our streets, then they should be soldiers. It's what they do.
And doesn't it make you throw up every time you hear politicians, media etc querying a "shoot to kill" policy? A lesson learned in my basic training in the mid 1960s has stuck with me ever since then. "You only ever point your weapon at a person if you intend to kill that person".
Yeah - having an unarmed Police force in the US would be a great idea.

And WTF has teh UK got to do with Nigeria?
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 22:16
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Jet II: Buck up! You stated the quote I included in my post. You know, the one about the logic of arming UK police full time in order to address your claim that they are not protecting the people. So I picked just 2 permanently armed police forces at random, the US and Nigeria. I suppose I could have made a long list but those 2 will do. I never mentioned having unarmed police in the US. To explain it slowly to you; I queried your argument that arming UK police will protect the population. The US has a set of permanently armed police forces and people are murdered wholesale there, so the "protecting the people" argument seems not to work there.
Got it now? It wasn't difficult really, was it?
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 22:22
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Jet II: Buck up! You stated the quote I included in my post. You know, the one about the logic of arming UK police full time in order to address your claim that they are not protecting the people. So I picked just 2 permanently armed police forces at random, the US and Nigeria. I suppose I could have made a long list but those 2 will do. I never mentioned having unarmed police in the US. To explain it slowly to you; I queried your argument that arming UK police will protect the population. The US has a set of permanently armed police forces and people are murdered wholesale there, so the "protecting the people" argument seems not to work there.
Got it now? It wasn't difficult really, was it?
I'll ask you a basic question - if the US police were not armed would the public be more or less protected?
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 22:37
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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No it's not wanted, but what would be nice is to allow law abiding citizens to be armed, that would ease the policing burden on law enforcement and afford them time to fight terrorism.
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 00:06
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Exactly my reasoning behind arming speed cameras rather than policemen.







Last edited by Ogre; 20th Aug 2017 at 00:10. Reason: Can't get the technology to work. Got it now!
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 01:24
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
Yeah - having an unarmed Police force in the US would be a great idea.
Last night - Six US police officers were shot in one night in the states of Florida and Pennsylvania, one fatally

....So I picked just 2 permanently armed police forces at random, the US and Nigeria....
Random?? I don't think so.
Selection seems to be weighted to support your argument.
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 03:48
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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I would've thought Bollards would've been more effective at stopping vehicle attacks than more armed police which arrive after the incident.
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 03:59
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LCYFlyer View Post
I would've thought Bollards would've been more effective at stopping vehicle attacks than more armed police which arrive after the incident.
Absolutely; on pedestrian malls and precincts.
But not terribly popular with shop owners because of hindrance to deliveries if no alternative delivery lane is available.

And you can't have bollards everywhere; or, at least, not very practical.

Last edited by WingNut60; 20th Aug 2017 at 04:17.
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 05:18
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Do you think they will stop at vehicle attacks or move on to something else when that becomes less effective?
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 06:35
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
Do you think they will stop at vehicle attacks or move on to something else when that becomes less effective?
Of course they will use whichever method works for them at the time.
Any preventive measures are only effective against the threat for which they are intended.

Short of turning the M-E into glass, I think that this will just continue in one form or the other ad infinitum.

But I still do think the UK coppers would be better off if armed.

All (I think) Australian police are now armed when on patrol or attending an incident.
It doesn't seem to have met with any of the criticism of principle mentioned in the posts above.
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 08:17
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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I think that this will just continue in one form or the other ad infinitum

It will at that until it becomes so painful for them that they decide the toll is too high.
That includes identification of embedded risks, dealing with them to remove them from society and having effective control of all types of immigration - legal and otherwise. Not easy but can be done. There is no other solution.
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 09:42
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
While I would really like to see the British unarmed police anachronism perpetuated.....times have changed. Not "changing" - "have changed". Police officers around the world carry firearms. Criminals around the world (including the UK) carry guns. Tasers are close range weapons, they have their uses and dangers but do not replace firearms.
I would prefer well trained police officers to be armed for their own protection and for the protection of the public they serve. (add mandatory body cams)
I would also prefer the law was changed so that the shooting of an individual with a gun in hand, or threatening with a bladed weapon in hand did not generate a routine investigation, rather was put down to justified shooting.
Lived most of my life in countries where the police are armed and it does not change my behavior to them one little bit.
Lots of nasty out there these days and police need the proper tools. If an officer has an aversion to carrying firearms or cannot be trained and certified in their use, they should either be not hired in the first place or relegated to a desk job. (That would take care of a lot of the totally unfit fatties as well).

NO to armed Police.... We need less weapons on the streets not more.....
A police officer can be an effective officer without toting a weapon, maybe acceptable in some countries, just don't want it here in Britain ...
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 10:11
  #59 (permalink)  
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I think in the Barcelona case, had it been in UK, then the police would not have been authorised to shoot.

An unarmed man, running away, even having killed someone by vehicle, is not an immediate threat. Had he been armed and running away he would still probably not have been a legitimate target unless it was assessed that he was a continuing threat.

An example was Clegg in NI who shot at a retreating vehicle in the belief that the vehicle was a clear and present danger to his colleagues and others; the courts did not agree.
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 10:40
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
Last night - Six US police officers were shot in one night in the states of Florida and Pennsylvania, one fatally
Have you considered the possibility that the only reason they were shot was because they were armed themselves?
Yes, some police officers are occasionally shot in the UK but this isn't a very common occurrence. After all, why shoot someone knowing that if captured, you may well end up in jail for a very long time when you also know that the officer concerned isn't armed and is very unlikely to be able to capture you?
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