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Old 10th Aug 2017, 21:37   #1 (permalink)
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Who ownes UK airlines?

With Virgin Atlantic it is 49% by Delta, 20% the Bearded one, 31% Air France / KLM.

Diving deaper DL is, at least under US law owned 75% by US Nationals the remaining 25% by ??? Branson is a citizen of the UK. AF/KLM by EU regulation is at least 51% owned by EU nationals*

So 75% of 49% is 36.75% at least owned by US nationals,
100% of 20% is 20% owned by a UK nationals;
And 51% of 31% is 15.8% owned by EU nationals

Total 72.55% known and 27.45 not known.

Depending on who owns the other 49% of AF/KL Virgin's EU ownership could be well below the 51% EU ownership required to be a community air carrier.

Whar about BA?
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Old 10th Aug 2017, 22:21   #2 (permalink)

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I used to be a Virgin Flying Club Gold card frequent flyer. Then Delta bought (i.e. Tricky Dicky sold for a personal profit) the first tranche of shares. Within weeks things started to deteriorate. I asked someone in the Upper Class lounge at LHR and was told that all the amenities were still available, I just had to ask. Never had to do that before, they were just there. Things got progressively worse as he sold off more shares, so much so that I gave up and changed to Lufthansa. Good German efficiency and you get what you pay for.

I'm afraid I have no squiffy feelings for Mr Branson; after Tubular Bells he set out to enrich himself and has succeeded at the expense of others. He has also maintained his public image by cloaking his ruthless business practices in "Green" and "Progressive" espousals and publicity stunts. Also bear in mind he came from money.

NEO (not a fan of the Virgin Brand)
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Old 10th Aug 2017, 23:38   #3 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ExXB View Post
With Virgin Atlantic it is 49% by Delta, 20% the Bearded one, 31% Air France / KLM.

Diving deaper DL is, at least under US law owned 75% by US Nationals the remaining 25% by ??? Branson is a citizen of the UK. AF/KLM by EU regulation is at least 51% owned by EU nationals*

So 75% of 49% is 36.75% at least owned by US nationals,
100% of 20% is 20% owned by a UK nationals;
And 51% of 31% is 15.8% owned by EU nationals

Total 72.55% known and 27.45 not known.

Depending on who owns the other 49% of AF/KL Virgin's EU ownership could be well below the 51% EU ownership required to be a community air carrier.

Whar about BA?
It is about controlling interest.

Delta's 49% is not in control unless Other shareholders agree and vite accordingly. If they in effect hand over control to Delta then it breaches EU regs and they would get themselves investigated and fined.
Companys know how to ensure it works.
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Old 11th Aug 2017, 00:20   #4 (permalink)
 
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Whar about BA?
Surely they are 100% owned by IAG who are Spanish Company?
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Old 11th Aug 2017, 06:47   #5 (permalink)
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Racedo,
The correct phrase is 'substantially owned and effectivly controlled'. It isn't one or the other it's both.

Some governments, like the Austrians or the Swiss, have found it politically expedient to ignore this phrase in their air services agreements and the other parties haven't objected.

But when it comes time to play hardball I'm not so certain that UK airlines will get the same bye.

So what agout BA? Who ownes IAG? 10% by Qataris I think.
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Old 11th Aug 2017, 07:07   #6 (permalink)
 
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You also need to look at the class of shares. Ownership (through shareholding) does not always equal control and without voting rights you have diddly.
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Old 11th Aug 2017, 14:11   #7 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ExXB View Post

So what agout BA? Who ownes IAG? 10% by Qataris I think.

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Old 11th Aug 2017, 20:39   #8 (permalink)
 
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The PSC register says the bearded one along with Delta are persons with significant control.
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Old 11th Aug 2017, 22:33   #9 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ExXB View Post
Racedo,
The correct phrase is 'substantially owned and effectivly controlled'. It isn't one or the other it's both.

Some governments, like the Austrians or the Swiss, have found it politically expedient to ignore this phrase in their air services agreements and the other parties haven't objected.

But when it comes time to play hardball I'm not so certain that UK airlines will get the same bye.

So what agout BA? Who ownes IAG? 10% by Qataris I think.
Correct because if you owned 30% but through some other means you controlled another 35% then it would apply.
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Old 11th Aug 2017, 22:34   #10 (permalink)
 
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Ryanair / Easyjet and others have conditions in Articles of Association enabling them to complulsory acquire shareholdings from shareholders to maintain the 50% EU / UK element.
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 09:12   #11 (permalink)
 
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You might well add the question to the mix: who actually owns the a/c in some airlines? I've always wondered how many of their fleet the host airline books as assets. There are some EU airlines who boast to have 00's of a/c but the owner's name plate is non-EU. I would not be surprised that there are some very imaginative and creative accounting practices in force.
What it comes down to is just what value of an airline the EU share-holders own if the airline does not own its a/c. Perhaps the same can be said of their real-estate assets.
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 10:03   #12 (permalink)
 
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What it comes down to is just what value of an airline the EU share-holders own if the airline does not own its a/c.
It's all IP these days - an airline is its ticket pricing algorithm. The rest is commodity which you can hire in.
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 11:28   #13 (permalink)
 
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You might well add the question to the mix: who actually owns the a/c in some airlines? I've always wondered how many of their fleet the host airline books as assets. There are some EU airlines who boast to have 00's of a/c but the owner's name plate is non-EU. I would not be surprised that there are some very imaginative and creative accounting practices in force.
What it comes down to is just what value of an airline the EU share-holders own if the airline does not own its a/c. Perhaps the same can be said of their real-estate assets.

Doubt it because there are a limited number of companies doing aircraft leasing, they need access to shed loads of cash so will ensure assets are accounted for correctly.

In addition banks who lend to airlines or they bank with will want to know who owns the aircraft.

Using example of Alitalia, going onto their website they give details of their aircraft including its number, 90% are EI- designated hence anybody with any knowledge of indusrtry would immediately call - Leased.
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 12:55   #14 (permalink)
 
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I read an XAA report about a serious a/c incident. It is operated by a large EU airline and owned by a Hong Kong company. If that is the structure used for this one a/c it made me wonder just how many of their fleet are also owned off-shore. Considering the share value of some airlines it makes me wonder just what total value of tangible assets they actually own; i.e. what is the share value of the company based upon. Just based upon profitability, which can be very variable, vulnerable and unpredictable seems risky.
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Old 12th Aug 2017, 13:27   #15 (permalink)
 
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I seem to remember it was Bob Ayling who was quite open about this - he wanted to create a 'virtual' airline where the Name was the only thing actually owned and everything else was contracted in.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 00:01   #16 (permalink)
 
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With Virgin Atlantic it is 49% by Delta, 20% the Bearded one, 31% Air France / KLM.
Going the same way as Michael Bishop? Look what happened to BD.

After 2019, will EU ownership (i.e. AF/KL's 31%) count as "foreign" ownership the same as DL's 49%, and will 80% foreign ownership be a problem for UK regulators?
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 10:21   #17 (permalink)
 
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will 80% foreign ownership be a problem for UK regulators?
The airline might not care very much if it has by then decamped to Europe.
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