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EasyJet: Inside the cockpit

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EasyJet: Inside the cockpit

Old 22nd Aug 2017, 10:16
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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As has been noted by others here, a training point for all of us is: Don't hand editorial control to The Meeja.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 10:57
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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pay to fly

I have never understood all this discussion about the merits/demerits about 'pay to fly'. It has always been the possibility that someone who is determined to become a professional pilot could do so using private funding. I am one such who funded the training from the profits from my business activities in another sphere; but I am sure some others were contemporaneously funded by mum and dad. The training syllabus ensures rejection of those individuals who are entirely unsuitable.
If the private funding route is these days more prevalent and (maybe?) more expensive than heretofore.......it is maybe one factor in the reduced airline overheads that enable the offer of low cost passenger seats and that is a good thing.

The idea that aircraft pilots are a specially gifted sort of person is not a notion with which I have ever agreed.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 11:07
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by longer ron View Post
The only thing I do not like about using the F+R stairs is that at some airports you end up out in the boonies and hence you have the added 'bonus' of a coach ride to the terminal
Worse than that is when it would be all of several tens of seconds to walk to the aircraft but they still make you wait for a bus.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 11:17
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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I think we need to move away from the idea that 120k and a vague idea is enough to get the job. People have and continue to get chopped during training, both at L3 ( and I'm sure other providers ) and during airline line training.

It may not have come across during the program but they really do have to meet the standard to be released to line. Is this a slightly lesser standard that back in the day? Maybe. I'm not qualified to judge that one. What I do know is that the guys and girls I fly with are almost all very competent for their level of experience and develop that and their skills as they fly the line with us.

Yes you might have to do a bit of mentoring at times, but that's just part of the job as a skipper from time to time. And out of one MPL course not so long ago about 1/3 needed extra training or were removed from the course. 120k doesn't buy a job.

WBV
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 11:21
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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"does a Dutch guy really need to know what a chip butty is to get a job in the RHS?"

Absolutely! EVERYONE needs to know what a chip butty is!
Standards, people. Standards!
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 11:42
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Worse than that is when it would be all of several tens of seconds to walk to the aircraft but they still make you wait for a bus.
Yes - a couple of years ago when I was doing the weekly commute england/scotland - I had flown north on the friday with ezy out of the north terminal,but I had parked my car in the South terminal (cheaper ).
Anyway returning south on the sunday night (last flight of the day) they actually parked the A/C out in the boonies at the South terminal and I thought 'excellent' - easier to get to my car ..... but no - then we had to wait for a bus to the N terminal LOL so added another 20 mins onto an already late flight .
bless them !
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 12:13
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Are pilots still unpaid until they are checked to the line?
I do think its wrong that there is no tax relief on training costs for the students.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 13:33
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Homsap View Post
Having seen episode two, I have to comment as follows:

(f) i think the Easyjet cadet scheme, may actually eventually backfire on them, because as all the pilots who have come through the traditional routes retire, they will end up with the 'children of magenta' as captains, and sooner or later there will be a Soiux City, type systems failure, i don't think these cadets will ever be able to cope with a complete failure by way of example of control surfaces, I am very doubtful they will have the handling experience like those who have gone before them. Likewise, I wonder if any of these cadets could ever make it as training captains, because unlike the traditional routes, they will not have the instructional experience, teamwork and leadership skills which you gain through cilian and military careers.
Nonsense, that doesn't have a basis in reality. Cadet pilots in airliners have already, multiple times, nursed crippled aircraft safely back to earth after critical system failures, I can think of several incidents off the top of my head. Could they ever make it as training captains? I don't know, maybe we should ask the tens of thousands of former cadets who are actually current training captains in airlines all over the world? Cadets don't have teamwork or leadership skills? Jeez I wonder what all the ones who have been captains (leaders) of crews (teams) for several decades would think of that.

a) As someone has commented, the copilot whos education is so bad that he didn't know where the bay of Biscay way, but it got worse how could he not know what chip butty was? Again he did even know how to use the interphone, sure that was included on his simulater training. Even funnier some of the PAX though he sounded like a young woman.
As has been mentioned before several times on this thread, the guy has a Dutch background. The Bay of Biscay is known by different names in other languages:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Biscay
So it's reasonable he doesn't know it by this name. And I didn't know it was a requirement to know the names of British foods in order to become an EU pilot? As far as the guy's competence goes, at the end of the program the training captain states that the young FO and his coursemates are "really switched on and really good"
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 13:44
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Ok, I will bite. I do not know whether easyJet is immune from following regulation as I know is prescribed in their ops manual. However, so far we have had cabin crew sat in the captain's seat; captain outside the cockpit chatting to f/o mother; sterile cockpit procedures not adhered to and much 'hilarity' over TRI (A) inability to land proficiently at LGW and much merriment while taxying to stand precipitated by the head of training no less. Much puerile giggling while presumably following complex taxi instructions. I have no idea what the CAA make of all that but ifI were their FOI I would be watching this with horror.

Plus... the comment made to the girl trainee over her 'enjoyment' was as crass as it could get from a so - called professional. I am as un - pc as it gets and as a base trainer for many years I would never have made such a remark to a female trainee. If I were her father I would be 'having a word'. I have been in this industry for nearly 40 years and I am not a luddite. However, our so - called 'profession' is on the verge of becoming a laughing stock. Base training is not a game. Generally after a 2 day session I needed to lie down in a dark room. This was caused by the twin stresses of not damaging the aircraft and the trainee needs / aspirations. Rather bizarrely the base trainer job has become a niche for 'managers' for reasons that escape me as the one thing you need is real currency on the aircraft.

My wife says I am a grumpy old git and she is probably correct. However, I do have a sense of humour; the problem is there is nothing funny about this. These trainees are parting with large amounts of money. The 'training' that they are getting does not appear to be of the highest standard. Plus to return to the original theme unless there has been some very creative editing then there has been some serious lapses in regulatory discipline. Plus the opposite of role model performance by those who should know better. Overall, embarrassing.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 13:46
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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I should add that I rather admired the Dutch lad with the squeaky voice. He was 'following his dream' and he appeared to be more switched on than the rest.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 13:46
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst the grim old barstewards of the past were not great, training is not a jolly, jokey, smiley process.
If that is how it is done in EJ then I would avoid flying with them.
Equally, those of us fortunate enough to avoid the military are grateful that the training attitude has moved on from the days where the person with the loudest voice gets promoted.

I've experienced EasyJet's training first-hand, and it was superb. I keep thinking that I ought to email the training captain who flew with me for a week from Gatwick when I first started, and thank him for teaching me the things that at the time I thought were trivial and yet are things I refer to every day I'm at work ten years on.

Last edited by Fursty Ferret; 22nd Aug 2017 at 14:46.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 14:18
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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unless there has been some very creative editing then there has been some serious lapses in regulatory discipline.
"Unless"? Of course there has been very creative editing, it's a TV series made for public entertainment and I suspect an average base detail would bore the pants of Joe Public.

Judging by the way some previous aviation related fly on the wall series have been edited I'd give most of the participants in this current "show" a heck of a lot of benefit of the doubt.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 14:51
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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In response, I previously stated that in the past it was healthy within airlines to have ex military, self improvers and self funded, but I am no self fuding at all, I just think we are on a slippery slope.

Regarding the cadet who did now what a bacon sandwich was, I not sure if he actually was a Dutch national, however he must have eat at exclusive places, having trained in the UK and having never have come across a bacon butty. Perhaps we need to write a revised aircrew dictionary for MPL cadets, so they know the difference between Julie Andrews and Shirley Bassey.

In relation to the Bay of Biscay, what level of SITAW did this 'copilot' have, surely he knew from a geographical point of veiw where he was, so for example over the Alps, the Pyrenees, the Rhine Delta, it is really astounding. It is no excuse to say he didn't do geography at school or that he might know the Bay of Biscay, due to his because he comes from the Netherlands.

I can think of a number of copilots in the past would carry an small atlas over printed with airways and VORs so they could familiarise themselves with let say with Europe, it is important because of the PAX, they like to know where they are, even if the copilot does know where he is beyond the DME range. Infact, If I had to work lets say in a different region in the world, i would make myself familar with the geography.

Now onto the upset training in the Slingby T67, why is the cadet from Oxford doing steep turns and wing drop stalls, surely she did that during NZ training, or not. Yes, we do not know if the aircaft was spun, but I doubt it, and that bothers me that we do upset training with pilots who have never spun an aircraft or flown solo aerobatics, that might seem old school, but I hope some people will support me on this.

Finally, what a joke issuing a MPL to someone not qualified to fly a C152 solo either VFR or IFR.

Last edited by Homsap; 22nd Aug 2017 at 15:04.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 14:53
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret View Post
Equally, those of us fortunate enough to avoid the military are equally grateful that the training attitude has moved on from the days where the person with the loudest voice gets promoted.

I've experienced EasyJet's training first-hand, and it was superb. . . .
I am very glad to have experienced RAF training which is very confidence-inspiring. Unfortunately, RAF BFTS costs are probably beyond what a civil operation could reasonably bear.
Loudest voice? Nope, that isn't how it happens at all any more than I think EJ training is like that portrayed.
I am re-assured by your last assertion in the above quotation.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 15:07
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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spinning and recovery...?

Yes, it is old school.
IF....it is policy to get trainees on to heavy jet simulators and in to heavy jet cockpits very early in career......is spin recovery important, at all? Maybe not.
Modern training instructor could post to enlighten me........
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 15:19
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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I was simply asking if someone can't learn to fly all aspects of the envelope, solo, probably they are not suitable to fly heavy aircraft, it may seem old school, but so was Sully. Pressing buttons is not going to get you out of a bad situation. time will tell.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 15:44
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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In relation to the Bay of Biscay, what level of SITAW did this 'copilot' have,
I'm not sure knowing the name of the geographic feature you are flying over really enters into it...sure you need to know it's nature and can it bite you ( e.g. high ground) but if the case of the pilot in question if it transpired he knew he was over water (so low MSA) and the location of his nearest suitable alternates then in terms of basic geography that is all he needs..

I like my geography, but each to their own, or not... for example how many non American pilot's overflying the likes of Niagra Falls could name the great lakes, in sequence from say west to east, from memory..and if they couldn't would it really be a reflection of poor SA?

(Some... Men.... )
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 15:48
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Ok, we are into linguistics now, I have never met anyone from the Netherlands called Jonathan or Kevin for that matter. If I order a Cafe Noir, even with my limited french I know it is a black coffee, Did this copliot really not know where he was. a twelve year old could have translated the Bay of biscay into French, flemish, or Dutch.

This guy was flying a UK registered aircraft and doesn't know where his is from a geographical point od veiw.

I really doubt if an Easyjet cadet could recover from a sprial dive on instruments or spin an aircraft solo solo in VFR or IFR.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 16:03
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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The Dutch guy may be a Dutch guy but his mother is British. That would no doubt mean a few relatives living in Britain so plenty of opportunity to mix with the natives.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 16:14
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wtsmg View Post
Or, the poor sod is from AMS and only knows it by its Dutch name!
Golf van Biskaje
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