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No new Diesel or Petrol cars after 2040 in UK

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No new Diesel or Petrol cars after 2040 in UK

Old 15th Sep 2020, 07:56
  #561 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
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My Iconic Ioniq

Interesting views and comments on EVs. May I add a few random thoughts? My situation is we have 8 months experience of a Hyundai Ioniq EV.

* In common with other owners, I have found "range anxiety" has steadily diminished. I have stopped glancing at the battery % every few minutes. Big ranges are not that important for urban commuting.

* I charge off a standard wall plug, at 2.2kW on an off-peak tariff. 20 hours charge time from 0% to 100%. Guess what? You don't charge to 100% normally and you NEVER discharge to zero, because then you need a tow truck. So in practice, I plug it in on Sunday afternoon and it is filled to a preset 90% by the next morning.

* In a very short time, we preset the adjustable re-gen braking to its most aggressive setting and then adopted single pedal driving. It's great gliding down quite steep hills near our place and not touching the brake pedal.

* Green issues - yes, we have all heard that the car charges off coal fired power-stations. And yes, if you do all the conversions you find the EV produces abut the same CO2 as an ICE. But the point to note is that the power source is centralized and can and will be replaced in due course. (And ours uses a substantial amount of solar generated rooftop power)

* An EV is essentially a mobile battery. We are on the cusp of revolutionising renewable power generation and energy storage, be means of buying & selling nighttime power to/from EVs plugged into the grid. The Nissan Leaf right now comes equipped with a reversible battery charger/inverter. We await the power companies initiative in this regard (A long wait?)

* A great pity that the EV makers have made no attempt to standardise battery dimensions, to support the third party supply of batteries. And this will also frustrate the huge future market of retired traction batteries getting use for renewable energy storage.

* Also disappointing to see them clinging to ancient manufacturing methods viz. painted pressed steel bodies instead of exotic fibre shells.

*Hyundai (like the others too, I assume) seem to have made lot of effort to mimic the ICE they are replacing, instead of regarding the EV as a new type of vehicle. I guess that is coming from the marketing guys, noting skittish and conservative buyers.
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 10:25
  #562 (permalink)  
 
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I certainly was glad of the flexibility of our old Devil Diesel Sportage last week,almost last minute decision (due to factors beyond my control) to drive from scotland down to englandshire to look at a glider trailer.Squeezed in an extra 2 gallons during refuel the night before (takes a while due to foaming/venting LOL - and please note I only do it when not expecting warm ambient temps to expand fuel).
We departed at 0500,kwikstop halfway to change drivers/pee,filled up car again on arrival near airfield,looked around trailer - bought it - then our return journey was delayed for an hour,but finally on road at 1400 (with trailer obediently following) and had a fun trip up the A1/M6/M74 etc,with a kwikstop for a pee at Abington services (easy parking in the HGV park).
Our old Sportage (2008) is a great motorway cruiser and very comfortable,with a nice high driving position for excellent road view and ultra easy for my old knees getting in and out LOL,it is not quite so nice to drive on country roads but then again we have a wee 2005 SWB Suzi Vitara for our fun trips
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 22:29
  #563 (permalink)  
 
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Well, for those into such things, if any one in the SE is interested, Shoreham Vehicle Auctions has a fleet liquidation sale next week with at least 11 2017 Nissan Leafs on offer, plus 4 Renault Zoe and 3 Kia Soul

https://www.shorehamvehicleauctions....=reference_asc
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 22:37
  #564 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Well, for those into such things, if any one in the SE is interested, Shoreham Vehicle Auctions has a fleet liquidation sale next week with at least 11 2017 Nissan Leafs on offer, plus 4 Renault Zoe and 3 Kia Soul

https://www.shorehamvehicleauctions....=reference_asc

Might be some good deals there, but be wary of the Renault Zoe's. They are great little cars, but some were sold with a very expensive leased battery, and Renault disable the battery charging system remotely if anyone buys one and then doesn't sign a new battery lease contract with Renault. This doesn't apply to all Zoe's but many were sold on impressive looking monthly price deals and these almost always had the leased battery option.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 00:22
  #565 (permalink)  
 
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This is an interesting video on battery vs hydrogen. If hydrogen technology and infrastructure was more advanced it could be a viable alternative, but it seems like it will lose out to batteries just like batteries lost out to petrol in the early years of the automobile. Once the system is entrenched, an alternative system would need to offer a highly significant advantage to make swapping worthwhile.

Whist the cars on the road will mostly be EV, hydrogen still has uses in specific applications and is a useful method of storing electricity ie if you have surplus power, use it to make hydrogen then when you need power use the hydrogen to generate electricity.



Last edited by krismiler; 16th Sep 2020 at 02:24.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 15:46
  #566 (permalink)  
 
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All is not well with hybrids:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54170207
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 15:57
  #567 (permalink)  
 
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The key to low emissions seem to be lightweight cars driven in a moderate way, possibly even in automated formations when on congested roads or freeways.
Heavy battery-equipped EVs cannot be lightweight. And people driving EVs for the fun of acceleration waste energy instead of conserving it. However heavy electrical braking might make more sense.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 16:05
  #568 (permalink)  
 
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Back in 2008, that awfully nice Mr. Prescott asked me to buy a diesel car because it was better for the environment.

After ducking and weaving for a while to avoid "the sucker punch", and my wife's very persuasive wiles, I caved in and the 3.5 litre petrol Beamer became a distant memory. The rest is history of course, now I do not trust any politician who says this or that is better for the environment. I'm not even really convinced by the eminent scientists who frequent these pages. I might as well "throw some chicken bones" and see how they fall.

IG

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Old 16th Sep 2020, 16:25
  #569 (permalink)  
 
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I've just come back from about a 70 mile trip around the local area. Parked in Amesbury the car attracted a bit of attention from a young couple. I was waiting to get a haircut, when my phone pinged a notification that the car had detected a sentry mode event. The cameras keep a look out all around when the car's parked, send a notification to your phone if they detect anything that seems suspicious, and you have the option to send a warning, by flashing the lights, or honking the horn, from your phone. The event is also recorded from all the cameras around the car (7 looking outside, 1 looking inside), and if serious enough the alarm will sound. This event was just a young couple posing by the car taking selfies, with the car as the backdrop. . .

Driving down the A303 later I passed another Tesla, and spotted a Hyundai Kona EV and an eGolf, so there do seem to be more EVs around now than there were a year or so ago. Off to Farnham tomorrow, about a 150 mile round trip. Be interesting to see how many EVs we spot on the roads. Mine's sat charging from sunlight right now, probably get enough free energy from the sun to cover today's little jaunt, which is good enough for me.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 16:54
  #570 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by james ozzie View Post
* Also disappointing to see them clinging to ancient manufacturing methods viz. painted pressed steel bodies instead of exotic fibre shells.
Nightmare to recycle. Can't even burn them properly.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 17:03
  #571 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BDAttitude View Post
Nightmare to recycle. Can't even burn them properly.
Apparently that is one of the main issues with the BMW i3, its single piece carbon fibre tub can't easily be recycled, unlike a conventional pressed metal tub. I believe the plastic panels are all easily recyclable, though. Reading some background to the debacle about recycling Pringle containers, the main issue for recyclers seems to be one items are made of several different materials that are hard to separate out. I'd imagine that composite construction car bodies probably fall fairly and squarely into that category, as IIRC the carbon fibre tub in the i3 has loads of moulded in metal hard points, where subframes, doors etc are all bolted on. The other notable things about having an all-carbon fibre tub is that it was exceptionally stiff. Great for a race car, but it made for a pretty rough ride in a road car, as every tiny shock that made it into the body shell could be felt, there was no inherent resilience to take out some of the harshness. Driving it felt rather like driving a go kart, good fun for a while, but a bit wearing when all you want is a comfortable trip from A to B.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 21:00
  #572 (permalink)  

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The key to low emissions seem to be lightweight cars driven in a moderate way, possibly even in automated formations when on congested roads or freeways.
Heavy battery-equipped EVs cannot be lightweight. And people driving EVs for the fun of acceleration waste energy instead of conserving it. However heavy electrical braking might make more sense.
EVs do have impressive acceleration but if you think that is the main attraction for having one you could not be more wrong. Most people owning Teslas, from reading the owners's forums I belong to, indicate that we become far more energy concious than when driving a conventional car. The acceleration is useful for overtaking and demonstrating to people unaware of the characteristics of EVs but, apart from shredding tyres, stressing the batteries and appearing a tosser, anybody who drives hard continually is an exception.

EVs have very efficient regenerative braking which is why the only regular use of brakes is to actually bring the vehicle to a complete stop from low speed. Teslas regularly do well over 100,000 miles without needing brake changes. I have done 50,000 miles and my brake pads are hardly worn.

You may not like EVs and that is fine because the less take up there is the longer I benefit from the 0% BIK taxation, lack of road fund licence, almost free parking in central London and 100% discount on the Congestion Charge.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 22:27
  #573 (permalink)  
 
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M Mouse:
You may not like EVs and that is fine because the less take up there is the longer I benefit from the 0% BIK taxation, lack of road fund licence, almost free parking in central London and 100% discount on the Congestion Charge.
I can understand why there is a case for tax incentives to purchase EVs, at least in the short term. However I fail to see why they should enjoy free parking or zero congestion charges. An EV makes exactly the same demands on scarce road or parking space as any ICE vehicle.
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Old 17th Sep 2020, 00:04
  #574 (permalink)  

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I cannot disagree but it is the way governments try to incentivise people to change their thinking. I don't make the rules but I will take advantage of them when it is beneficial to do so!

In London I believe the advantages of an EV are to try and address the appalling air quality.
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Old 17th Sep 2020, 07:09
  #575 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...ergy-gtjfjrxmq

Hydrogen plants will power buses with clean energy

Emissions from buses, bin lorries and gritters could be dramatically reduced in Scotland under plans to build a network of hydrogen stations.

The first plant will be built on the outskirts of Glasgow near Whitelee wind farm with hopes of it being in operation within two years.

Other locations are being examined by a consortium called Green Hydrogen for Scotland, which comprises Scottish Power Renewables, the gas provider BOC and the energy storage specialist ITM Power.

Wind or solar energy provided by Scottish Power would be used to make the hydrogen fuel..... BOC will operate the proposed Glasgow facility while ITM Power will build the electrolyser to be used on the site.

The hydrogen would be taken by tanker to existing transport hubs such as bus depots or public sector vehicle compounds......

Lindsay McQuade, chief executive of Scottish Power Renewables, said: “Making transport cleaner and greener is at the heart of how we can unlock net-zero emissions and achieve the ambitious climate change targets set out over the next ten to 30 years.

“While electrification will play a significant role in taking petrol and diesel vehicles off our roads, it can only go so far. Our revolutionary approach fully supports the large-scale transformation needed to replace heavy diesel vehicles with cleaner, greener alternatives.”

The consortium also believes that it could eventually build plants that are used to power ferries.

BOC runs Europe’s largest hydrogen production and refuelling site in Aberdeen. Mark Griffin, the market development manager for clean fuels at BOC, said the consortium was keen to develop more projects in conjunction with local authorities around Scotland.

Fife council has been using hydrogen dual-fuel bin lorries since 2017 and some buses in Aberdeen are powered by hydrogen.......
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Old 17th Sep 2020, 11:03
  #576 (permalink)  
 
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We will probably end up with cars being EV and heavy vehicles being hydrogen, similar to the pre 1990s days when it was a petrol/diesel divide.

Buses are well suited to hydrogen as they tend to refuel only at the depot and refueling with hydrogen is much quicker than recharging. Lorries tend to refuel at the depot and dedicated truck stops which cater specifically to them. Providing hydrogen infrastructure at a few hundred depots and strategically placed points scattered throughout the country is a much easier undertaking than converting the thousands of petrol stations which cater to cars, over to the new fuel.

There will probably be some hydrogen powered cars, which might suit someone living close to a facility. Long journeys would need to be planned but there would be enough truck stops around to keep inconvenience to a minimum.
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Old 17th Sep 2020, 11:31
  #577 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if the car industry will try to match new stricter limits with a new generation of ultra efficient and clean combustion engine cars? Don't see them do it as they went the heavy and horsepower route.
Where are the new FIATs and Minis and Golf 1s? They look like some lost art from the past. It has to be SUV and 150 horsepower plus only today.

The two basic issues I see with EVs are their very limited range and charging. Not everyone has a garage or personal charger available wherever he goes. Who'd want to stop in the middle of the night at dark places to recharge? Every 7300 Euro new Dacia has some better functionality.
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Old 17th Sep 2020, 15:52
  #578 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
The two basic issues I see with EVs are their very limited range and charging. Not everyone has a garage or personal charger available wherever he goes. Who'd want to stop in the middle of the night at dark places to recharge? Every 7300 Euro new Dacia has some better functionality.
My first car was a Mini. Had a 5 gallon fuel tank, IIRC, and did around 40mpg on a good day. Range was ~200 miles, less than 2/3rds the range of my current EV. I don't see that EVs having a 250 to 300 mile range as being an issue, as that is around 5 to 6 hours driving without a stop. If you're going to stop, then it's no hassle to plug the car in and charge whilst you take a short break, coffee, or whatever. There are more charge points in the UK than there are filling stations, so what's the problem? This is a screen shot from Zap Map taken a few minutes ago, showing just how covered the UK is with charge points:



Charging in a dark location at night is something that needs to be sorted, but a bit of journey planning may avoid that, there is good lighting at many charging locations, and the issue is being addressed by those building new charging stations, like this one that will be opening soon near Braintree:





I get you hate EVs, and want to try and diss them as much as possible, and that's fine, we're all different. Not really on to make up stuff in order to try and make a point though, IMHO.
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Old 17th Sep 2020, 16:37
  #579 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think anyone hates EVs - what is there to hate? But even my local village filling station has six pumps for diesel, six for unleaded and six for super unleaded - total 18 pumps in one filling station. So the argument that there are more charging points than filling stations rings a bit hollow, in my view. As I've posted before, I am seriously concerned with the recycling of EVs - including the Li ion batteries. As for BMW using C fibre for the EV structure that is completely un-recyclable. The batteries are also un-recyclable, even if some of the metallic components can be extracted, cobalt and nickel being the premium examples. It would also have been quite handy if battery technology was standardised before EVs began to be created in volume, but it's too late for that now. It seems in the rush to get the world to accept and adopt EVs, the normal concerns of recycling in the automotive sector have been thrown to the wind. That usually does not end well.
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Old 17th Sep 2020, 16:45
  #580 (permalink)  

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It’s worth researching the long term environmental damage caused by extraction of the minerals required for battery manufacture. Reducing one cause of damage can easily cause a problem elsewhere.
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