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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

Old 14th Oct 2020, 08:14
  #101 (permalink)  
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Great news for taxpayers ! .....

From the main article in today's Guardian" HS2ís costs have risen by another £800m, the government has admitted, barely a month after the start of the high-speed rail network.

The reshaping of Euston station is likely to cost at least £400m more than planned, while the discovery of more asbestos than expected in demolitions along the line of the route has added around another £400m."
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 08:22
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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If the work culture is changing rapidly to more working from home there must be something better to spend the money on.

Oh, I know, more homes, local hospitals, local schools, local infrastructure, local communities, workforce training, increasing UK productivity..............
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 08:29
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Mac
In the dim and distant past I had a small part in a film called "The National Health." It was filmed in a disused hospital in Greenwich. It was a grand building with big wards and ceilings were fourteen or fifteen feet high. Big enough they could build scenery modern wards (and lifts) inside the old one so we could film in both.

The story went that a firm had been given the contract to design a hospital for the military in India and one in Greenwich and the plans had been sent to the wrong places and the hospitals were too far along to correct the mistake when the mistake was discovered so they were completed according to the plans.

Unfortunately it did not lead to a glistening career. I had to wear a mask so no one would know I played four parts!
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 08:34
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Great news for taxpayers ! .....

From the main article in today's Guardian" HS2ís costs have risen by another £800m, the government has admitted, barely a month after the start of the high-speed rail network.

The reshaping of Euston station is likely to cost at least £400m more than planned, while the discovery of more asbestos than expected in demolitions along the line of the route has added around another £400m."
If the same template is used for the redevelopment of Euston as was used for London St Pancras and Birmingham New Street, then what they'll get for this investments is a large shopping centre with a few rail lines and platforms thrown in for good measure.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 09:13
  #105 (permalink)  
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ATNotts
You did not think it would be any different. With the growth of working from home you do start to wonder if there is an economic purpose to it. Also the demise in rail freight (mainly due to reduction in coal shipment) is freeing more paths for trains as well.

ChrisVJ
There was a library built in Scotland in the 70,s where electrical plans were misread resulting in the 240v wall sockets being placed upside down but more importantly 700mm below the ceiling. Issue was only spotted just before handover.
Cheers
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 09:32
  #106 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Great news for taxpayers ! .....

From the main article in today's Guardian" HS2ís costs have risen by another £800m, the government has admitted, barely a month after the start of the high-speed rail network.

The reshaping of Euston station is likely to cost at least £400m more than planned, while the discovery of more asbestos than expected in demolitions along the line of the route has added around another £400m."
KnC
Told you costs were going up massively. There is a "book" unofficially with a number of the QS on the job, and nobody has got a number anywhere near the budget quoted by this Govt.
Cheers
Mr Mac
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 09:49
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
If the same template is used for the redevelopment of Euston as was used for London St Pancras and Birmingham New Street, then what they'll get for this investments is a large shopping centre with a few rail lines and platforms thrown in for good measure.
Using an airport terminal plan?
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 10:01
  #108 (permalink)  
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Everytime I wind up at Kings Cross/St Pancras, it takes me ages to find the Thameslink entrance - too many outlets and tiny signage do not a good martini make for the rushing traveller. Can spot the tube signage straightaway... I now know what to look for and might even remember where it is next time I have to use it. Sorry, slighy OT rant...
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 10:15
  #109 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
KnC
Told you costs were going up massively. There is a "book" unofficially with a number of the QS on the job, and nobody has got a number anywhere near the budget quoted by this Govt.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Ah, that's what happens when professionals get involved.......alas, the definition of such and this Gov't is a classical oxymoron.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 11:30
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Great news for taxpayers ! .....

From the main article in today's Guardian" HS2ís costs have risen by another £800m, the government has admitted, barely a month after the start of the high-speed rail network.

The reshaping of Euston station is likely to cost at least £400m more than planned, while the discovery of more asbestos than expected in demolitions along the line of the route has added around another £400m."
This translates as;

"In order to get the go-ahead for the whole crackpot scheme we had to make the financials look a whole lot better than they really were. So we changed the assumptions (eg the value of time) on which we based our calculations of the economic benefit to the UK to increase it by a factor of 10, and we arbitrarily chopped away the predicted costs until it all looked OK. We all knew that as soon as the project started we would start issuing announcements that the costs would be more than expected, and that this would continue until the final bill came in, by which time the amount would be exactly what we have always known, ie some 10 times the figure used in the original cost/benefit calculations."

The cost of asbestos removal is well known; any reasonably thorough survey would have revealed its presence in any building scheduled for demolition along the route. Was this done? If not, why not?

What is it about the cost of reshaping Euston that wasn't known 5 years ago? Nothing, of course, but it was really necessary to use a much lower figure to con gullible politicians into approving the HS2 white elephant.

We can only hope that the Chancellor will realise that pouring billions into this daft project, when he is trying to work out how to pay the hundreds of billions cost of the pandemic, is so patently stupid that not even BoJo would support it.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 11:36
  #111 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
This translates as;

"In order to get the go-ahead for the whole crackpot scheme we had to make the financials look a whole lot better than they really were. So we changed the assumptions (eg the value of time) on which we based our calculations of the economic benefit to the UK to increase it by a factor of 10, and we arbitrarily chopped away the predicted costs until it all looked OK. We all knew that as soon as the project started we would start issuing announcements that the costs would be more than expected, and that this would continue until the final bill came in, by which time the amount would be exactly what we have always known, ie some 10 times the figure used in the original cost/benefit calculations."

The cost of asbestos removal is well known; any reasonably thorough survey would have revealed its presence in any building scheduled for demolition along the route. Was this done? If not, why not?

What is it about the cost of reshaping Euston that wasn't known 5 years ago? Nothing, of course, but it was really necessary to use a much lower figure to con gullible politicians into approving the HS2 white elephant.

We can only hope that the Chancellor will realise that pouring billions into this daft project, when he is trying to work out how to pay the hundreds of billions cost of the pandemic, is so patently stupid that not even BoJo would support it.
A nice rational and logical thought....but, sadly, a shade late as he already has........also, another two missed opportunities for Boris ! ......when shown recently at the construction site we will recall.......both involve bulldozers and ditches....
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 16:28
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
This translates as;

"In order to get the go-ahead for the whole crackpot scheme we had to make the financials look a whole lot better than they really were. So we changed the assumptions (eg the value of time) on which we based our calculations of the economic benefit to the UK to increase it by a factor of 10, and we arbitrarily chopped away the predicted costs until it all looked OK. We all knew that as soon as the project started we would start issuing announcements that the costs would be more than expected, and that this would continue until the final bill came in, by which time the amount would be exactly what we have always known, ie some 10 times the figure used in the original cost/benefit calculations."

You could apply this to virtually any major engineering project, military or civil, government or private. It's partly the fault of the contractor being so desperate they chop the actual cost away to get the job and partly the fault of the customer for accepting it; both parties know it is a nonsense.

Speaking of contractors, How many levels of subcontractor are there between Prime and the bloke wielding the shovel or digger controls? All those staff agencies in the chain taking their cut along the way.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 21:19
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Carry0nLuggage View Post
You could apply this to virtually any major engineering project, military or civil, government or private.........
yes. that's so, of course. But the person manipulating the numbers to provide the answer the client wants while still keeping up a facade of plausibility is more often than not the Consultants engaged to do just that, and I'm sure that those employed by HMG are doing that daily. If those in power want the project to be financially justified, then that's what the reports will say. After all, no-one pays a Consultant to condemn their pet project.

It's exactly what - in a past existence - I and colleagues did for our airport clients round the world. Feasibility? CBA? Certainly, your Highness, consider it done, what a fantastic boost for your country's economy it will be, to be sure. And the 4,500m runway you told us it needs will certainly be very useful. And the Chinese are paying; how clever of you to arrange that. Where shall we send our invoice?
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Old 29th Nov 2020, 08:01
  #114 (permalink)  
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Any idea what is going on behind the scenes?


https://www.conservativehome.com/the...-railways.html

Shapps has spotted a once-in-a-lifetime chance to give Britain world-class railways

What a wonderful time to be in charge of Britain’s railways. The pandemic both demands and enables a programme of improvements which would otherwise have taken many years to achieve.

Since March, about £10 billion of public money has been spent to keep the trains running. At first sight, that looks like an unmitigated disaster. It is certainly unsustainable. But it also means the strike weapon has lost its edge. To threaten to bring empty trains to a halt is no threat at all.

Nor can the rail unions divide and rule, as they did when services were divided between different train operating companies, a system which had already collapsed before the pandemic. This is a moment of central control, when the Government is paying the bills and can insist that the interests of passengers and taxpayers take precedence over the desire of the unions to prevent change.

Ministers recognise this is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to sweep away the accumulated absurdities, ranging from outdated working practices to the ludicrously convoluted fare structure, which are holding the railways back, and to press ahead with such innovations as the introduction of driverless trains, first seen on the Victoria Line in 1968 and the Docklands Light Railway in 1987......
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Old 29th Nov 2020, 08:45
  #115 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Any idea what is going on behind the scenes?


https://www.conservativehome.com/the...-railways.html

Shapps has spotted a once-in-a-lifetime chance to give Britain world-class railways

What a wonderful time to be in charge of Britain’s railways. The pandemic both demands and enables a programme of improvements which would otherwise have taken many years to achieve.

Since March, about £10 billion of public money has been spent to keep the trains running. At first sight, that looks like an unmitigated disaster. It is certainly unsustainable. But it also means the strike weapon has lost its edge. To threaten to bring empty trains to a halt is no threat at all.

Nor can the rail unions divide and rule, as they did when services were divided between different train operating companies, a system which had already collapsed before the pandemic. This is a moment of central control, when the Government is paying the bills and can insist that the interests of passengers and taxpayers take precedence over the desire of the unions to prevent change.

Ministers recognise this is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to sweep away the accumulated absurdities, ranging from outdated working practices to the ludicrously convoluted fare structure, which are holding the railways back, and to press ahead with such innovations as the introduction of driverless trains, first seen on the Victoria Line in 1968 and the Docklands Light Railway in 1987......
As always ORAC, a suitably straight from Central Office shameless ( I liked that programme ) promotion including the mandatory anti trade union entry.

Just two little points however......care to remind us which political party privatised the rail industry....and which PM, here's a clue, she came from Grantham and is now unlamented ( well apart from her disciples on JB ) and deceased was so opposed to the railways, she simply deprived them of investment.
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Old 29th Nov 2020, 09:04
  #116 (permalink)  
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KnC, it wasn’t a promotion, it’s a question.

I haven’t seen or heard anything around any proposed changes - which presumably would need to pushed through in the next 6 months or so - and wondered if this was just a kite-flying exercise or if there is anything being planned which anyone has heard about.

Last edited by ORAC; 29th Nov 2020 at 10:07.
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Old 29th Nov 2020, 09:42
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Shapps has spotted a once-in-a-lifetime chance to give Britain world-class railways

Hear a bit of this sort of rubbish. All Britain needs is ordinary stuff that works,
all we get is political willy-waving.
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Old 29th Nov 2020, 14:40
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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But just as it is no longer necessary to check the oil in a car by opening the bonnet and inspecting the dipstick, for there is a light on the dashboard which will tell you if more oil is needed, so it is no longer necessary for each train to be checked every 24 hours by a driver who walks all round it at ground level, on a path wide enough to keep out of the way of other trains, and well lit enough to be used at night.The unions insist on this ritual, which has become a ridiculous waste of the highly paid driver’s time, and of taxpayers’ money. Like modern cars, modern trains tell you when something goes wrong.
I can't take anything in this article, or it's author seriously, after reading that.

As for driverless trains, I wonder if the author has noticed that conventional railways that are driverless are rather few and far between?
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Old 29th Nov 2020, 15:59
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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So modern trains tell you when something goes wrong? Here's very recent occasion that it didn't happen….

see https://www.gov.uk/government/public...investigations

on the preliminary report

Derailment and fire involving a tanker train at Llangennech
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