Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Dunkirk (2017)

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Dunkirk (2017)

Old 22nd Jul 2018, 20:00
  #201 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,606
BV, indeed. Many of these films, either close to the real event such as Above Us the Waves or a fictionalized film such as Cruel Sea, serve to give the audiences at least a taste of reality. Some, such as the River Plate, have memorable sound bites that were probably true "Hookey Bell" or "Anticipation"

If nothing else, Ice Cold in Alex brought the arid desert conditions to people who had never seen a desert.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 20:46
  #202 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 64
Posts: 2,423
Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
At the risk of repeating myself, maybe itís just good that the movie brought the events of Dunkirk to a younger audience who would otherwise live in ignorance.
All the more reason why it should have been historically more accurate...
Xray, few people who watched Private Ryan believed it was based on a true story of saving a young Private Ryan. Most people watching Dunkirk would think it was based on the real Dunkirk evacuation.
tdracer is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 21:01
  #203 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 1,631
But Saving Private Ryan was based on D Day. Just as Dunkirk was based on the evacuation.

What does everyone find so appalling about the movie?

It shows the fact that 3-400000 British troops were stranded and that the Navy and the small ships clubbed together to bring them home.

Throw in a a bit of RAF involvement and the obvious personal interest that makes a movie a movie instead of a documentary and voila. You have a film that was well received by all but the sticklers who have more than a passing knowledge of military history.

If you made it a niche vanity project with perfect historical accuracy it would have been watched by dozens instead of millions of people if it had ever been made in the first place.

There are now millions of people world wide who know about the Dunkirk evacuation that probably didnít previously and many of them were entertained.

I honestly donít see the problem. But I am not in the least surprised.

BV
Bob Viking is online now  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 08:12
  #204 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 372
BV, I partially agree.

People have been made aware of the Dunkirk evacuation (I have spoken to a Frenchman who saw the film who had, up to then, been totally unaware of that bit of history).

However, 'Saving Private Ryan' did it very, very well and 20 years on is still being spoken about as being influential.

'Dunkirk' did it badly and as such will be forgotten quite soon. A big pity as attention to historical accuracy (on one simple point, the soldiers did not look as if they had just come off a parade ground, they were filthy and shabby after many days of fighting and disrupted living on their retreat; the RAF involvement was very poorly portrayed) could have made this a film that would be spoken about in 2037 the same way that 'Saving Private Ryan' is now. It wasn't and now it won't. Pity

I will repeat that I am glad that I didn't waste money and time going to a cinema to watch this inferior film.
Trossie is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 09:44
  #205 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,606
I read many personal war stories in the 50s. I can recall one vividly which was the actions in Walcheren and the battle for the Scheldt. The story was well told and although I can still recall the detail, at the time I had no idea where the action took place.

I suggest for a global audience the historical and geographic context was probably lost. Even for WW1 for many years I equated 'western front' as running East-West when really it was predominantly north -south.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 13:55
  #206 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Москва/Ташкент
Age: 49
Posts: 783
Well, I guess 50's movies were utterly authentic given that many participants actually fought in the war and had direct experience to draw upon, as well as the audience being able to pick out unrealistic features immediately. Nowadays somebody born decades after the war can whip something up, perhaps using one "Technical Adviser" (not that there are many left!) and its basis in realism can be way, way off. I'm a great fan of Kelly's Heroes, which probably is more realistic (minus the 60's pot sequences) than many a war drama today.
flash8 is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2018, 13:38
  #207 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Wirral peninsula
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
But Saving Private Ryan was based on D Day. Just as Dunkirk was based on the evacuation.

What does everyone find so appalling about the movie?

It shows the fact that 3-400000 British troops were stranded and that the Navy and the small ships clubbed together to bring them home.

Throw in a a bit of RAF involvement and the obvious personal interest that makes a movie a movie instead of a documentary and voila. You have a film that was well received by all but the sticklers who have more than a passing knowledge of military history.

If you made it a niche vanity project with perfect historical accuracy it would have been watched by dozens instead of millions of people if it had ever been made in the first place.

There are now millions of people world wide who know about the Dunkirk evacuation that probably didnít previously and many of them were entertained.

I honestly donít see the problem. But I am not in the least surprised.

BV
I couldn't agree more. What surprises me is how many sticklers (not necessarily on here) show a singular lack of knowledge or even of basic research. There is plenty of good, reliable source material out there. Read Norman Franks' book 'Air Battle for Dunkirk' for example. First-hand account of a Spitfire landing on the beach WHEELS DOWN, details of one pilot who shot down 4 aircraft in one sortie. Plenty of evidence of things that many sticklers claim as impossible, never happened in real life, etc. OK, Dunkirk the movie does at times stretch reality somewhat, but not as outrageously as some have said, and at the end of the day it is a MOVIE not a documentary!
Xray4277 is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2018, 08:41
  #208 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vendee
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
A big pity as attention to historical accuracy (on one simple point, the soldiers did not look as if they had just come off a parade ground, they were filthy and shabby after many days of fighting and disrupted living on their retreat; the RAF involvement was very poorly portrayed)
One reviewer, and obvious wag, I came across described the beach scene as the highest tribute ever given to those responsible for British regimental laundry as the uniforms looked inspection ready even after a fighting retreat.

Overall a decent starting point, despite the errors many have pointed out here, that can be used as a springboard by those who are unfamiliar to discover new fields of historical reading and study.
Uncle Fred is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2018, 08:53
  #209 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,606
Originally Posted by Uncle Fred View Post
One reviewer, and obvious wag, I came across described the beach scene as the highest tribute ever given to those responsible for British regimental laundry as the uniforms looked inspection ready even after a fighting retreat.
y.
Actually the reviewer was wrong.

The uniforms were probably new issue from stores. Not the film wardrobe but Army stores in Dunkirk.

I read in one of the POW books I devoured that the Germans used captured British Army stores to issue to POWs. However one batch of clothing was ruined as the Army had poured sulphuric acid over them as part of the destruct of equipment at Dunkirk. Those war films showing airmen and sailors in khaki were not far from the truth.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 07:52
  #210 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: SW France
Age: 73
Posts: 571
Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Saving Private Ryan was a fictional story set against real events (D-Day) - Dunkirk is about real events. Very, very big difference. And yet the Omaha landing in Private Ryan is so well done and so accurate that D-Day veterans had flashbacks.
The first 15-20 minutes are so convincing that I can't bring myself to watch the film again.
As for the flying scenes - a lot of CGI around a few real aircraft. If you want to see great aerial combat scenes on film, watch Battle of Britain. Even taking account of the (relatively) primitive special effects B of B is far better than the CGI in Dunkirk.
I'm far from being an expert in air combat scenes supported by CGI but in my view the opening scenes from "Unbroken" are excellent..
For full screen watch on YouTube.

Last edited by sidevalve; 14th Aug 2018 at 08:15.
sidevalve is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:00
  #211 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vendee
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Actually the reviewer was wrong.
I believe it was meant by the reviewer in jest. Humour. Levity. Mirth.
Uncle Fred is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 12:19
  #212 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,606
Originally Posted by Uncle Fred View Post
I believe it was meant by the reviewer in jest. Humour. Levity. Mirth.
j
Jest or not the great unwashed might not know the possibly facts. Whether new uniforms were issued I don't know but ​​​​I was told that stocks were drenched in battery acid.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:35
  #213 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Age: 43
Posts: 588
Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
What does everyone find so appalling about the movie?
Because it was awful?

The opening scene looked like the protagonist was walking around a town in Northern France in 2017, just with all the cars removed.

Huge modern cranes at the port of Dunkirk visible.

No sense of there being hundreds of thousands of people on the beach.

Some of the air to air scenes were good, but the "gliding forever and shooting down planes" went beyond parody. And the model Spitfire burning at the end - couldn't be hard to show an engine in the fire?

I could go on.

Believe me, I was itching to see this film - it was the biggest cinematic disappointment for a very long time for me.
eal401 is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 14:36
  #214 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: AndyCappLand
Age: 98
Posts: 7,642
It's entertainment, for pity's sake - not history ! (no, I've not even seen it).

If you want reality, then the "miracle" of Dunkirk has a prosaic explanation: it was a humiliating rout in fact, not any kind of "victory". (but nothing in this detracts from the countless individual acts of heroism and self-sacrifice involved).
..."but the German High Command ultimately denied him the authority to attack the Allied forces encircled in the pocket at Dunkirk"... [Wiki: "General Heinz Guderian"] ...
I understand Guderian was ordered to halt his armour for 48 hours. It was widely believed here at the time that Hitler assumed that Britain must be on the point of surrender then (and with the Chamberlain Government still in power, who would swear he was wrong ?) He did not intend to take on the onerous task of housing and feeding 300,000 men - let Britain do that: after all, some of the returned troops had their rifles, but as all the armour, artillery and transport of the Expeditionary Force had been lost in France, what came back was not an army in any sense, and no immediate danger to him now, or much of an obstacle to his planned invasion.

"Came the Hour, came the Man" - It was Churchill's undying achievement that he took over at this point, and put the fight back into Britain with his matchless oratory.

Nit-picking now is pointless - but if you do nit pick (link supplied by troppo [#185], leads to}:
...Search IMDb Dunkirk (2017) Poster Dunkirk (2017)Goofs (75):
"Factual errors
The Mk 1 Spitfires portrayed had a total fuel capacity of 85 imperial gallons. This was held in two tanks - one above the other. The top tank emptied into the bottom tank till it was used up. The fuel gauge the pilots are checking was only capable of measuring the bottom tank which held 37 gallons. Therefore it would not be possible for the pilots to determine they had 50 galls of fuel remaining"....
Not so: I did my OTU on Spitfire Is (70.45) at Hawarden in summer 1942. Distinctly remember that the fuel gauges had two scales (one for each tank), and a little red button to select the one you wanted.
Danny42C is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 22:11
  #215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1
The origins of the so-called "Hitler Stop Order" have been known to historians for some time. The most succinct recent version is contained in 'The Blitzkrieg Legend: The 1940 Campaign in the West" by the German historian (and serving Bundeswehr officer) Karl-Heinz Freiser. The Guderian version is not accurate.

Best to get the German-language version; the current American translation leaves something to be desired.
iskanderian is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 04:32
  #216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 64
Posts: 2,423
It's entertainment, for pity's sake - not history ! (no, I've not even seen it).
Danny, my concern is that many people - especially the younger generation - think it is history. OK, it's good to tell the younger generation that Dunkirk happened, but how many of those who didn't know about Dunkirk before seeing the movie are going to bother to do any sort of research to find out what really happened, rather than just assuming the movie was reasonably accurate?
Yes, I do have an axe to grind on this - as previously noted I saw the movie "Battle of the Bulge" as a youth when it first came out - and for many years I actually believed it was representative of what really happened (you know, like the great desert tank battle in the Ardennes forest , after which the German soldiers abandoned, their equipment and walked (in formation!) back to Germany ) rather than a highly fictional story (very) loosely based on what actually happened.
Historical movies that miss-represent history do a huge disservice to the general public and their historical knowledge.
tdracer is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 06:28
  #217 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,293
People have been made aware of the Dunkirk evacuation
Which is good, but it was not the only evacuation. My dad was involved in Operation Aerial, the evacuation from the Western French ports (mostly RAF). Reims to Brest took him a month in convoy, under fire the entire time. They had to run the last four miles, as the roads were blocked by abandoned vehicles. He almost missed the last boats, and spent 6 hours in the water.
reynoldsno1 is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 07:06
  #218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 1,631
Tdracer

I will say this again. What is so inaccurate as to mislead the general public?

There are human interest parts to the story as with any movie. The French guy pretending to be British and the guys trying to sneak in to the ship etc. Yes the Spitfire gliding scene was silly and the BFM was not realistic but it was still good to see actual flying footage that managed to convey the tension of live combat.

I know people didn't like the tryptic timeline element but actually when you realise whatís going on it is a novel way of building to the tension at the end of the movie.

I will even admit to getting goosebumps when I watch Kenneth Branagh raise his binoculars when he spots the little boats.

Iím not on commission to promote the movie and I can see itís faults. I donít own it on DVD but I would watch it again.

So, once again, how were the public mislead? The movie was about one aspect of the Dunkirk evacuation. It doesnít have to be an epic that covered events two months either side.

Even if only a few youngsters bothered to google the Dunkirk evacuation as a result of seeing the movie thatís still a lot more than would have done if they hadnít watched it. Having Harry Styles in the movie was a master stroke for that reason.

Could the movie have been better? Yes. Will it satisfy history buffs? No. Was it watched worldwide by millions of people? Yes.

I watched Dunkirk for the first time in Fort Worth, Texas. The patrons there seemed to really enjoy it. An American audience watching a movie about events in WW2 before Pearl Harbour. Can you imagine that?!

Job done.

BV

Bob Viking is online now  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 07:59
  #219 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,606
Reynoldsno1, indeed I only read a book about that evacuation recently. You are right, much is unknown. Following up Wiki links is informative, especially named operations.

I have read and seen film of the fall of Singapore, but nothing of the evacuation of Java where my father got away.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 09:11
  #220 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Age: 50
Posts: 1,340
It was just a cr"p film.
It doesn't matter how historically accurate you are if you can't achieve the basic element of engaging the audience.
Tashengurt is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.