Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

South Africa on the Brink?

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

South Africa on the Brink?

Old 24th Aug 2018, 07:05
  #101 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 7,046
Where I am at the moment precludes my accessing and posting the article for you but in today's UK Financial Times, on page 11, there is a short blurb from the desk of Cyril Ramaphosa that sets out his reasons and justifications for the land policy being implemented by the ANC.
I commend it to your readers.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2018, 11:10
  #102 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Brighton
Age: 65
Posts: 9,642
Washington Examiner: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...arm-land-grabs

Trump has a point about South Africa's farm land-grabs

It’s entirely true that land ownership in South Africa is racially biased and that it was so by design through good parts of the 20th century. It’s also true that taking the land off people without compensation is the beginning of a descent into not having an economy at all, like Zimbabwe. That certainty of the latter makes the former rather something that has to be put up with, rather than the sort of “Yes, but …” we’re getting from the likes of Vox and other places on the Left. Yes, apartheid was a foul system, that system of discriminating between who had economic and civil rights upon the basis of their skin color. But then, shouting about the skin color of those who own land is also discrimination, which is what's happening now, isn’t it? Pointing that out gains the ire of the South African Government. But does that mean that Trump is right in talking about a wave of murders? No, not really, but here is what is right concerning this matter.

The only economic system we’ve ever stumbled across that produces actual growth, a rise in the living standards of the general population, is one with private property rights, with land rights being important on this point. The suggestion in South Africa is that the imbalance in who owns land today is so great that the very concept of ownership should be undermined. Government should be allowed to take from one to give to the other, to reallocate, without compensation to those who currently own land. Yes, it is tempting as a political solution. It’s also a disaster as an economic one. The evidence of this being the shell that is Zimbabwe today after former President Robert Mugabe did exactly that: He took the land from the one group and gave it to another. Once that happens, no one’s property is safe, therefore no one invests in property. With Nicolas Maduro gaily confiscating factories to give to the worker cooperatives who will invest in a factory in Venezuela today?

Our own Founding Fathers were so aware of this that the U.S. has an actual constitutional prohibition on it being done. No property may be taken without just compensation — to do otherwise we call a “taking.” Sure, there are reasons grand enough that we can force someone to sell, but we’ve got to pay them.

So whatever one’s views on the racial makeup of landowners in South Africa, it isn’t worth destroying the entire basis of any possible form of prosperity to rectify the situation. The truth being that yes, injustices have happened throughout history, but there is a point where the disruption of the remedy is larger than any righteousness of rectifying them. My native England, for example, was entirely stolen by the Normans in 1066. Large chunks of the best land are still held, a millennia later, by their descendants. A campaign to restore the old Anglo-Saxon land holdings would be, rightly, considered ludicrous.

There is also one more point about South Africa, one that’s terribly impolite to mention these days, and someone can even be accused of racism for even thinking about it. The Bantu (that’s a technical term applying to the culture) didn’t actually reach the area south and west of the Fish River in South Africa before the Dutch and English (i.e., the whites) arrived. The area simply didn’t work for the Bantu agricultural basket of technologies. It needed wheat and other European crops before it could be farmed. The inhabitants before that were the Khoi San and the like, just the same people who were displaced by the Bantu Expansion out of West Africa in the previous millennium.

To put it crudely and politically incorrectly, within recorded history everyone there other than the Bushmen is a recent colonialist, white and black together. Quite why we should destroy an economy to benefit one group of such incomers over another isn’t well explained by anybody.
ORAC is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2018, 11:13
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Darkest Surrey
Posts: 5,352
Originally Posted by A_Van View Post
To be populated and managed by the Chinese in this case. Some difference, IMHO.
Nope by Russians hence why they need to start populating the area or lose it.
racedo is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2018, 14:56
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: apogee
Age: 64
Posts: 57
Canada and Russia do share some geographic similarities and most of the easy stuff (farmingwise) has been exploited.
What's left are combinations influenced heavily by long winters, brief and not overly warm springs and summers, tree lines, permafrost, hard scrabble land, taiga (boreal, snow forests), long way from anything, little infrastructure including transport infrastructure and basically, being well up the creek.
Did I mention black flies, horse flies and mossies?
Hard work for any African or other pioneer.
meadowrun is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2018, 15:39
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Darkest Surrey
Posts: 5,352
Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
Canada and Russia do share some geographic similarities and most of the easy stuff (farmingwise) has been exploited.
What's left are combinations influenced heavily by long winters, brief and not overly warm springs and summers, tree lines, permafrost, hard scrabble land, taiga (boreal, snow forests), long way from anything, little infrastructure including transport infrastructure and basically, being well up the creek.
Did I mention black flies, horse flies and mossies?
Hard work for any African or other pioneer.
Lots of land in both Canada and especially Russia and the US that is underused because nobody there any longer.
racedo is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2018, 16:00
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Canadian Shield
Posts: 511
Ramaphosa was still democratically elected by the people of South Africa last February.
Well, yes - not forgetting that the purest form of democracy is mob rule, of course.
er340790 is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2018, 16:50
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 67
Posts: 883
Julius Malema, South African MP

"Shoot the Boer".


sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2018, 16:35
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Darkest Surrey
Posts: 5,352
https://twitter.com/hashtag/NedbankE...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Lose your land through Govt approrpriation is not a good enough reason not to repay the loan.

Good luck with that idea Olivia.........
racedo is offline  
Old 6th Sep 2018, 13:12
  #109 (permalink)  
bnt
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland. (No, I just live here.)
Posts: 712
At the moment, a major government building in downtown Johannesburg has been on fire for over a day now, and has already claimed the lives of three firefighters: link.
A firefighter fell to his death while battling the blaze and two firefighters died after they became trapped in the building.

All government officials were evacuated, while 13 employees and eight firefighters were taken to hospital for smoke inhalation.

Gauteng MEC for infrastructure development Jacob Mamabolo revealed on Wednesday that the building was only 21% compliant with safety regulations.

"The building simply does not comply with safety and health regulations. Government officials will stay at home until there is a safe building to relocate them to," Mamabolo said at a media briefing at the scene on Wednesday afternoon.
The building belongs to the Gauteng Department of Health & Human Services.
bnt is offline  
Old 6th Sep 2018, 20:17
  #110 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 7,046
It is ominous that South Africa is introducing tax legislation designed to force émigrés to return and to prevent those, particularly the wealthy, who would wish to leave form doing so.
Legislation soon to become law in South Africa will require all SA citizens working abroad, in no matter what tax jurisdiction, to pay South African income tax on their earnings even if they are not resident in SA during an entire tax year. This legislation is primarily aimed at Saffers working in low tax jurisdictions. There is a one million rand per annum exemption but this figure includes all benefits, accommodation, health insurances and even air tickets, as provided by the employer.
In certain cases of course, there will be tax treaty benefit but nonetheless, the effect of the legislation, as intended by the government, will be to force many South Africans to return home. It is a punitive tax edict enforced on the grounds of citizenship alone.
One might have thought to avoid this situation by emigrating from SA but this has already been anticipated and dealt with by SARS. Should you wish to financially emigrate from SA, the value of all your assets, investments, possessions etc, excluding only immovable property in South Africa, will be assessed as having been liquidated on the date that the applicant intends to leave South Africa. A very real CGT will then be applied, at prevailing and relevant rates, to any gains and that CGT will have to be paid. It's obvious that, as the gain is an assumed one while the tax is not, a serious cash flow problem could arise for many, ironically becoming worse the richer one is.
Thus the government have legislated to force skilled labour to return while making it almost impossibly expensive to leave.
The British Labour Party, now composed at its viperous head almost entirely of dedicated Communists, anticipates a capital exit flow from Britain should it attain power, accompanied by a flood of wealthy people leaving, taking their usual revenue contributions with them. One must be in no doubt that what has happened in South Africa will not have escaped the green eyed monsters at Momentum. Britain may look to a mirror image of the South African legislation in the first budget that any incoming Labour government will introduce.
From all of this, one must deduce that South Africa is indeed on the brink and that Britain might very well be there soon too.
Those with long memories will remember the exchange control legislation practised in Britain and axed by Mrs Thatcher, when Brits were only allowed to take £50 a year out of the country. John McDonnell will not wait long before reintroducing capital controls and these days, what with body scanners, you won't be able to take out a roll of £50s in the codpiece of your Y fronts.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2018, 07:09
  #111 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Brighton
Age: 65
Posts: 9,642
ANC land reform threat hits values

The value of South Africa’s farmland has plunged by a third since the government announced that it would accelerate land reform.

The Deeds Office said that the average price per hectare in July was £475, down from £695 in December when the ANC adopted expropriation without compensation. A record number of rural properties are on the market as farmers panic about the ANC’s intentions.

It was also announced last week that South Africa had gone into recession, amid a 30 per cent drop in agricultural output.

President Ramaphosa’s decision to press ahead with expropriation has rattled international investors and hit the rand. Critics fear that it could lead to violent farm seizures, as in Zimbabwe.

Mr Ramaphosa has insisted that food security will be prioritised.......




ORAC is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2018, 08:05
  #112 (permalink)  

Plastic PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,852
"A record number of rural properties are on the market as farmers panic about the ANC’s intentions. " Two Pinocchios.

Cyril is not stupid, he knows that the economy desperately needs good farmers - a but of noise for the mob but no Rhodesian style takeovers.

Most of the stuff on the market is hardscrabble land that is marginally viable. Check out the prices of good land - it is astronomical!

Properties are on the market. not "as farmers panic about the ANC’s intentions" (takes a lot to panic a boer) but because the owners are getting older and dying off (though not by wholesale slaughter) and their children increasingly see farming as an unattractive career.

Farming in SA (or anywhere) is damned hard work, day in and day out, especially with the recent droughts.

Mac
Mac the Knife is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2018, 22:22
  #113 (permalink)  
bnt
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland. (No, I just live here.)
Posts: 712
Just reading that Roelof "Pik" Botha has died at the age of 86. He had been Minister of Foreign Affairs under P.W. Botha (no relation) and F.W. de Klerk, similar to Foreign Secretary or Secretary of State, after a stint as Ambassador to the UN. He had some fairly substantial disagreements with official Apartheid policy, thought much of it was petty ("I'm not going to die for a sign in a lift") and was considered "too liberal" to be PM himself. He could be called the architect of the peaceful dismantling of Apartheid, including the release of Nelson Mandela, which he pushed for in 1985. He never joined the ANC, though, and strongly criticised their "affirmative action" policies in later years. Between them, the Washington Post and Guardian obituaries have some good coverage.
bnt is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 06:07
  #114 (permalink)  

Plastic PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,852
The Grauniad said. "... A rare Afrikaner in a ministry dominated by anglophones,"

Rubbish. No ministry in the old SA was dominated by anglophones (if that means non-Afrikaaners)

Mac
Mac the Knife is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 09:07
  #115 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 7,046
No ministry in today's South Africa is dominated by natural Anglophones, those who speak English as a first language, The dominant language though will not have changed, just the quantity and amounts.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 09:29
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 82
Posts: 1,316
An opinion piece from an ANC member.
ian16th is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 08:12
  #117 (permalink)  
bnt
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland. (No, I just live here.)
Posts: 712
Originally Posted by ian16th View Post
An opinion piece from an ANC member.
That was not at all what I was expecting - in a good way.
bnt is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 08:47
  #118 (permalink)  
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Still looking for that seemingly elusive bad bottle of Red but also counting down the days until I return to the Land of the Rising Sun for another three months of flying, eating and drinking!!
Age: 64
Posts: 2,509
An opinion piece from an ANC member.
Can't read it as I keep getting a pop up from 'News24' or some such, telling me that because I use an Ad Blocker I cannot read the item unless......
Pinky the pilot is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 09:04
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 82
Posts: 1,316
For those that cannot access the URL

Mathews Phosa: The enigma that was Pik Botha

7-9 minutes2018-10-14 06:00



Mathews Phosa

Pik Botha was never far from controversy. Among those who knew him, many felt he thrived on the intellectual challenge of difficult debates, sometimes stirring up hornet's nests as he went, not always meeting with everyone's approval, but certainly bringing a refreshing sincerity, an open mind and boundless energy to the table.

His was a restless energy, working long hours into the night studying legal opinions from his international law advisers; considering complex memoranda and policy proposals from his departmental officials; dictating Cabinet documents; writing letters to his constituents; consulting with his close aides, or receiving an ambassador who had requested a hearing; and often holding impromptu meetings with fellow MPs or journalists who would pop in for a quick chat. A day with Botha was never dull.

He was not a conventional politician. He had little time for boring meetings and listening to meaningless speeches. Parliament was a purgatory for him, and he was seldom to be seen there, except when answering questions in the House, delivering his budget speeches, or attending the opening session. Otherwise he would be in his office, throwing himself at his work, or travelling extensively as his job required. In fact, nothing about him was conventional, which made him such an intriguing and fascinating figure.

Most intriguing, perhaps, was just how different he was from his National Party (NP) colleagues in the parliamentary caucus and the Cabinet. He was always a maverick, viewed by many of his fellow MPs as an outsider whom they were not quite sure how to deal with. That did not stop them from inviting Botha to address public meetings in their constituencies, as he was guaranteed to fill whatever hall they chose, and although Botha would often say things they did not like, his charisma and stage presence was a sure vote-getter.

Journalists often commented on the irony that someone like Botha, who was so far ahead of the political system he operated in, could survive as long as he did as Foreign Minister from 1977 to 1994. And yet he remained a force for change, often the only force, in his political party. We have not seen the like for a long time.

His early speeches drew extraordinary public support, telling anyone who would listen that discrimination based on colour could not be defended; or that he was not willing to "die for an apartheid sign in a lift".

He was publicly opposed to the tri-cameral parliament introduced in 1984, believing it would make a bad situation worse as it excluded the majority of the population, and was therefore dead-on-arrival. Its only merit, in his view, was that it broke the paralysis in NP thinking at the time, and could possibly serve as a springboard to more fundamental change. On its own it was too deeply flawed to serve as any kind of solution for South Africa.

By 1985 he was calling for the release of Nelson Mandela and a negotiated future for the country. He said so during a media conference in early 1986. This was heresy in the NP at the time, and he came perilously close to being fired (not for the first or last time). Senior leaders of his party thought Botha had finally gone too far, and he had to be shown the door. He survived by the skin of his teeth. PW Botha brutally repudiated him in Parliament, little knowing that four years later Mandela would be a free man and historic negotiations would commence.

After seven years of negotiations (1981–1988) the war in Angola finally came to an end, and it was Pik Botha who signed the Trilateral Agreement with Cuba and Angola at the United Nations in New York in December 1988. But for him his biggest moment as Foreign Minister came shortly thereafter with the independence of Namibia, an issue he had worked on since the World Court case in the 1960s.

Botha knew at the time that things were changing rapidly, and with the collapse of communism and the withdrawal of Soviet and Cuban troops from southern Africa, new possibilities were on the horizon for South Africa. He welcomed Mandela's release and the dawn of a new era of constitutional democracy, in which he played his part as Minister of Minerals and Energy Affairs in the Government of National Unity.

For many in the liberation movement, and especially those in exile, Botha was variously an enigma, a riddle, a breath of fresh air, a lone voice trying to convince his party and his followers to imagine a different future for the country, and at the same time the international face of the apartheid government. He was all of those things, but he also defied easy description.

He believed deeply in South Africa and its people. He could see no reason why his government, or any government of South Africa, should not put its faith in the people, and deliver a non-racial future where every citizen could enjoy equal rights under a democratic constitution.

Many in his own party labelled him a sell-out, while many in the opposition labelled him an arch racist. Botha was neither, and never was.

I was one of the first of the exiles to return to South Africa after Mandela's release to commence the process of normalising the political situation in the country and laying the groundwork for the democratic transition that was to follow. Years of negotiations and our joint work to build and consolidate the institutions and practices of a new democracy at the southern tip of Africa, brought me into regular contact with Botha, the man and the politician.

We in the ANC found in him someone we could relate to; someone we could work with; someone who wanted much the same outcome as we did. We could not say that for everyone in the NP whose paths we crossed. Nor could we always agree with Botha on many issues, but there was a degree of sincerity in the man, and a desire to do what was right for the people of South Africa that was unmistakable and set him apart from so many of his peers, in his own party and in others.

It was not only his technical expertise, his personal charm, and his quick-fire mind that gave him an elevated status, but ultimately his human qualities and the endless battles he fought over many years that defined him as a truly great South African.

He became a personal friend, to me and other comrades who got to know him.

As we say farewell to Botha, let us reflect on where we came from and how far we have travelled. No-one said it was going to be easy, and it still isn't. There are other mountains to climb, but looking back it seems hard to imagine what South Africa might have been without Pik Botha. We all owe him a quiet word of thanks.

- Dr Phosa is a politician and attorney and former ANC treasurer general and anti-apartheid activist.

Disclaimer: News24 encourages freedom of speech and the expression of diverse views. The views of columnists published on News24 are therefore their own and do not necessarily represent the views of News24.
ian16th is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 22:52
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: deep in the forest of life
Posts: 7
Pinky--if you scroll down on the pop-up, at the bottom it states "continue without supporting us"----click that and it disappear. Thank you ian16th for the copy.

K
katya2607 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.