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South Africa on the Brink?

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South Africa on the Brink?

Old 19th Feb 2018, 16:12
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sultan Ismail View Post
Centuries old tradition of democracy:
Confederation Helvetique 1848
Union of South Africa 1910

Artifial boundaries:
Limpopo to Vaal
Transvaal
Vaal to Orange
Orange Free State
Orange Southwards
Cape Province

Now add in the Tugela, Olifants, Great Fish Rivers and you will understand why there are so many tribes in South Africa.

It was the Colonialists who came along and built bridges....
Good fences make good neighbors?

GF
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Old 20th Feb 2018, 11:01
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
A collection of different black tribes, many of which donít get along too well. Mixed race and Indians. Two different white groups speaking different languages, one side reliving the Boer war and unable to forgive the other for past injustices.

A huge divide between rich and poor, black and white with resentment still felt over apartheid and itís lingering effects 25 years on.

No single unifying figure to replace Nelson Mandala with broad appeal to all races. Rising poverty and unemployment, decaying infrastructure, increasing crime and corruption.

Not a pretty picture.
An extremely accurate post.

The comment about the 'unifying figure' is accurate rather than trying to put it as a 'unifying leader'. He was just an icon that had a 'unifying' effect simply because everyone took a great deep breath of relief that things hadn't gone disastrously wrong and he happened to be there waving and smiling in a floral shirt. The actual 'leading' was done behind the scenes by others with him as that 'figure'.

Those boundaries may be what Europeans see as 'natural' rather than 'artificial' boundaries, but in an African setting they are illogical. (If there is a river providing water, a tribe lives on both sides of it; using that river to create a 'border' simply splits that tribe artificially in half.) The 1910 boundary that 'joins' the Venda and the Cape Malay (I am purposefully using 1910 terminology here) into a common 'nation' is total nonsense.

'Democracy' in South Africa from 1910? I think many, many will claim that the true date is 1994. I would even contest that, as the entirely 'party list' electoral system means that not one single vote in the entire country has been cast for any particular individual; who actually gets into parliament is all entirely in the hands of the inner circles of The Party (whichever party) and there is absolutely no place for the individual. Democracy as known by most countries is still some way off in the future for South Africans.

By the way, what is 'South African' other than something that fits into the artificial boundaries of a disparate political entity created by a far off colonial power? No-one has said yet.

Not a pretty picture.
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Old 20th Feb 2018, 12:08
  #63 (permalink)  
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It was the Colonialists who came along and built bridges....
I would beg to differ, the Zulu Kingdom's "foraging parties" travelled far and wide across a very large area of South Africa. Attacking, massacring, and stealing the children, wives and cattle, of many other tribes, for thousands of years before, during, and after, colonial rule ended. Further, it continued throughout apartheid, and is still active today.

Other tribes of the Ciskei and Transkei area conspired to place the Pondo people as the "meat" in the sandwich between them and the Zulu Impi's to act as a buffer, hoping that the Pondo's would get slaughtered first and their goods carried off before the Zulu's got to them. (In the tribal hierarchy, the Pondo's are considered to be almost at the bottom of the pile, while the Zulu's are top dog)

Just as a matter of interest, natives from many different tribes come to work in the mines and factories however it is unthinkable to place members of different tribes together if you do not understand their very specific, tribal allegiances. You must also observe carefully to see if the dynamics are changing. If not, multiple murders, strikes, violence and sabotage will be the result.

The colonialists could build as many bridges as they wished, and try to police borders, it makes very little difference. The dynamics of tribal warfare have never gone away, nor will they in the next 500 years.

It is useful to see comments made by people who have experienced the true difficulties associated with bringing a population from raw tribalism to a fully integrated nation state.

IG
 
Old 20th Feb 2018, 14:53
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Zimbabwe has two main tribes, the majority Shona and the minority Ndebele who are an offshoot of the Zulus. For hundreds of years the Shona lived in fear of the Ndebele until 1980 when they gained control of the military apparatus, then it was payback time.

The Shona soldiers went on a government ordered rampage, massacring thousands of civilians in the Ndebele province of Matabeleland.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 11:00
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
Zimbabwe has two main tribes, the majority Shona and the minority Matabele who are an offshoot of the Zulus. For hundreds of years the Shona lived in fear of the Matabele until 1980 when they gained control of the military apparatus, then it was payback time.

The Shona soldiers with assistance of Chinese backed North Koreans went on a government ordered rampage, massacring thousands of civilians in the Matabele province of Matabeleland.
Bold are corrections, underlined is an addition. Otherwise correct.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 07:07
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Zuma to face 18 charges
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 11:06
  #67 (permalink)  
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Ian16th; Tried to pm you, but message says your inbox is chockers!
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 11:36
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot View Post
Ian16th; Tried to pm you, but message says your inbox is chockers!
Cleared some dross out.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 19:22
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Trossie, krismiler is correct when he wrote Ndebele because that was what everyone called them in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 14:41
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A picture speaks a thousand words.

IMG_0806.JPG
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 15:50
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Trossie, krismiler is correct when he wrote Ndebele because that was what everyone called them in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe
Iye Khona. The tribe is Matabele, the language is Ndebele. It was when I was there.

Last edited by Fareastdriver; 28th Feb 2018 at 12:10.
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Old 28th Feb 2018, 10:04
  #72 (permalink)  
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On Tuesday, Parliament voted in favour of expropriation of white-owned land without compensation:
New President Cyril Ramaphosa used his first major speech on February 16 to express his support for expropriation without compensation — as long as it increases food production.

Much of the most productive land in South Africa is still owned by white people, 24 years after the end of white-minority rule — one example of the country’s struggle to tackle its stark racial inequalities.

White farmers control 73 percent of arable land compared with 85 percent when apartheid ended in 1994, according to a recent study.

“The time for reconciliation is over; now is the time for justice,” EFF leader Julius Malema told parliament.

“It is about our dignity. We do not seek revenge… all that our people ever wanted is their land to which their dignity is rooted and founded.”

The ANC is increasingly under pressure to speed up land redistribution to help shore up its support among poorer black voters ahead of the election next year.
It's not law, yet - that would require a change to the Constitution.

Ramaphosa has to be clueless to think that his caveat means anything. Of course he'll get his assurances that expropriation will increase food production. Trust us, we know what we're doing ...
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Old 28th Feb 2018, 14:23
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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... and sitting in his comfy retirement just to the north, Bob Moogayb must be chuckling his head off!!
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Old 1st Mar 2018, 04:09
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Rhodesia was the bread basket of Africa, now Zimbabwe is the basket case of Africa.
Do these halfwits want the same to happen to South Africa?
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Old 1st Mar 2018, 06:20
  #75 (permalink)  
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Hmmm. Confiscation of white farms would make a lot of money for some people in the ANC. Can't see any other reason for them to even think about it.
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Old 1st Mar 2018, 16:17
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Octane View Post
Do these halfwits want the same to happen to South Africa?
Why would they care, so long as it helps them maintain power? They won't be the ones who starve when food production collapses.

The amazing thing is that anyone didn't expect this to happen.
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Old 1st Mar 2018, 23:48
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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White farmers will be “persuaded” to give up some land against the implicit threat of a Zimbabwe style redistribution exercise.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 19:25
  #78 (permalink)  
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That'll be the same then as Corbyn's proposed nationalisation of the British rail, water, gas, electricity and anything else that touches his fancy.
South Africa is part of the Commonwealth. Perhaps the present British government should point out to the left wing Malema and his ANC allies that compulsory confiscation of private property is not to be tolerated in a democratically based global society by trading partners whose citizens face exactly the same draconian distribution system when a change of government comes for them.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 10:32
  #79 (permalink)  
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You are quite correct.
What I should have said was compulsory confiscation without recompense of any sort. That's what Malema's Marxists are going to do.
As a sidereal, the Momentum Marxists in Britain, who wear red ties instead of red caps, will nationalise, or confiscate, whatever they want to and have admitted that the scale of recompense will be set by parliament. That amount to the same thing as will happen in SA.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 18:36
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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South Africa appears to be using Venezuela as their economic model - confiscating white owned farms is their equivalent of when Venezuela took over all the oil production.
After all, that's worked out so well for Venezuela
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