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Putin - Good guy or bad guy?

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Putin - Good guy or bad guy?

Old 6th Feb 2017, 11:55
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Putin - Good guy or bad guy?

According to the Wall Street Journal, Vladimir Putin has been good for Russia. The conservative American newspaper has published a number of positive stories on the leader of Russia and the usually xenophobic Fox News has carried more than a few pieces on Putin that were decidedly soft recently.

On the other page, newspapers like the New York Times, the Guardian, and numerous mass media outlets including the BBC have not had much good to say about the man, including some heavy hitting coverage on his KGB roots and something called polonium and a Mr. Litvinenko as well as more than a few troubles with the Ukraine, Crimea and Syria.

Cue the current US President, who seems to have something cooking with ole Vlad - a bit of a world leader bromance seems to be developing before our very eyes.

What are the intimate thoughts, hopes and fears or general impressions of Jet Blast regarding this guy?

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Old 6th Feb 2017, 12:21
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One mans hero is another mans terrorist. Or, in other words, there is no 'right' answer to that question.

You might as well have asked 'Hamas, good or bad?'. From my point of view, and probably yours too, the answer is unequivocally 'bad'. If, however, you were a Palestinian in the West Bank, where Hamas is the main provider of social services, the answer might very well be different.
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 12:43
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Tough question, and possibly with no universally 'right' answer. Thanks for getting that front and center, SMT Member. It is a call for judgement based upon what we know, yes? ...and yet we rarely know all of the details of anything, yet often have a sense of what is or isn't there.

What about projecting forward far enough to be able to look back, through the lens of perceived history, knowing we are being 'watched by the future'? Does that bring anything into a better focus or does it scramble the view with the mere suggestion of such an odd mental exercise?
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 13:20
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I think he's primarily acting in the overlapping interests of (a) Russian internal politics and (b) his own personal gain. If that means trolling the leaders of other countries, then, that's what he'll do. We laugh at Trump's "Make America Great Again, but Putin's been on a "Make Russia Great Again" trip for nigh-on two decades now.
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 14:09
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If, however, you were a Palestinian in the West Bank, where Hamas is the main provider of social services, the answer might very well be different.
Interesting comparison - the consumer of their social services may well consider them a good thing, ignoring (because of their cultural mindset) that their first principle of 'destroy the big neighbour above all else' may be the cause of poverty and permanent deprivation.

Much like the Russian citizen?
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 14:31
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
Interesting comparison - the consumer of their social services may well consider them a good thing, ignoring (because of their cultural mindset) that their first principle of 'destroy the big neighbour above all else' may be the cause of poverty and permanent deprivation.

Much like the Russian citizen?
I think most people lower down the food chain,regardless of country of residence, have a tendency to focus on things that have a direct and obvious impact on their day to day existence rather than looking at the bigger picture.

Going back to the first post. Follow the money as always. Trump's business has links to Russia. So does Murdoch's (owner of the WSJ and Fox). The difference in income from Russia if you're in Vlad's good books is significant compared to the alternatives.
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 14:49
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He's gone into Syria and sorted it out in short order. I think many in the west would have worked to depose Assad and ended up with another rat's nest just like those countries that "benefitted" from the Arab Spring.

On an associated point Eddie Marsan would make a great actor to portray Vlad.
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 15:28
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Will he have more..or less money in his personal Piggy Bank than the Donald.

In my mind if its More than Donald ..then Donald needs/wants a lesson..if its less, then "the Donald" is looking to make more out of the Big Brown/Black Bear...possibly not for himself I quickly add..

However I feel VLad the Impaler will last longer..!
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 17:27
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I think Vlad's been good for Russia. He's settled a lot of the chaos that was going on there. Russians like authoritarian leaders, and they like Putin. In return for their affection, he has returned to the old KGB ways, enriched himself and his pals, and reversed some of Russia's progress towards full rights for its people.

For us outside, we do things differently, we don't like the negatives associated with Putinism, and we're not sure we like a newly strengthened and competitive Russia.

So no full conclusion yet regarding Vlad.
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 18:01
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These 'politicians' that accrue vast wealth - what good does it do them?

They cannot openly indulge in profligate spending for fear of being 'outed'.

Or am I missing something?
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 20:11
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"These 'politicians' that accrue vast wealth - what good does it do them?

They cannot openly indulge in profligate spending for fear of being 'outed'."


I guess you don't know much about Mexico then.
Bob.
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 20:39
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When one compares politicians I e Heath, Blair, Brown, Camoron, Major etc. only one has a spine, since Maggie and Ronald Reagan,... and that is Putin, and I speak as a fully fledged right wing Nationalist
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Old 6th Feb 2017, 20:49
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Must be a good guy, who else would conveniently park their country right next to where NATO want to play war games???
 
Old 7th Feb 2017, 03:02
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Ouff, this is hard. I have to go on record with Trump that both the Yanks and Putin do killing. Vlad is blasting Syrians and the odd Ukrainian; the US has accumulated a massive Iraq casualty count with more to come in Mosul.

So who's killed more - getting hard to tell.

Where's the crow pie?
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Old 7th Feb 2017, 03:19
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He is a Judoka . A judoka uses an opponents force to defeat an opponent.
Just like Russia has used an opponents weight against Russia's opponents since the first Polish occupation of Moscow in the early 1600's.
They used similar techniques against Napoleon, The Prussians and Lithuanians in the Patriot wars and against the Third Reich In the Great Patriot war that ended in Berlin.
Start worrying if he starts practising Pankration
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Old 7th Feb 2017, 10:24
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One problem is that Russians rather like having a strong leader, and many see Putin as the man who is restoring their national pride by making their nation strong again. The break up of the Soviet Union hit Russia hard - imagine what it must have been like going from a massive world power to a country that had lost almost all of its former "empire"?

So, I can understand why Russians generally like Putin, and are prepared to overlook some of his excesses. He's put Russia back on the world stage, and Russians respect that.

The flip side is that the rest of the world have long memories and aren't so accepting of his past, or the way he deals with people he considers to be personal enemies. If you're a Russian and you speak out against Putin enough, then there's a risk you'll come to an unpleasant end, like Litvinenko.

I also happen to think that, personally, Putin likes to be seen as the very strong leader, who kills those who oppose him, even though he smiles and denies it at the same time. In Russia this just reinforces public support for him. Outside Russia it creates a great deal of concern.

Many of us here are old enough to remember the height of the Cold War. I remember having a cupboard filled with canned food in bags, and other essentials, and a well-thought through plan to load up and sail my yacht South as soon as possible if I had warning that an attack was on it's way. Because of my job at that time, I was reasonably sure I'd get a head start on getting away from the UK and out into the Atlantic, and was also reasonably sure that most of the fallout would be in the Northern hemisphere, so if I could get South of the Equator I reckoned I had a chance. I doubt that anyone who hasn't lived through that time can imagine someone thinking that each day might be their last, but there were a heck of a lot of us who really did think that way at the time.

That's left a legacy of mistrust that still applies to Putin and modern Russia today. We had a few years respite after the collapse of the Soviet Union, but gradually those old fears I grew up with are returning.

So, to sum up, I think there are two sides to Putin, the show he puts on for the benefit of the Russian people, and the rather secretive planning that he does to get this internal recognition yet avoid being openly caught out by the West. Most of the time he does things in order to gain more support, to the extent of hero worship, within Russia. If that happens to make him unpopular in the West, then I really don't think he gives a damn. I do think that intellectually, Putin is streets ahead of many Western leaders, and particularly the new US President. He's consistently outwitted most for many years now, and has yet to get his nose bloodied in the way some of his predecessors did. That causes me to have the view that he's a threat to global stability, but that's probably largely down to my age and experiences.
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Old 7th Feb 2017, 10:47
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
Ouff, this is hard. I have to go on record with Trump that both the Yanks and Putin do killing. Vlad is blasting Syrians and the odd Ukrainian; the US has accumulated a massive Iraq casualty count with more to come in Mosul.

So who's killed more - getting hard to tell.

Where's the crow pie?
And who'll kill more through their refusal to control gun use within their own borders?

Trump can bang on all her likes about bad people, terrorists and the like, but unless, heaven forbid, there is a repeat of anything on the scale of 11 September 2001, by the time he leaves office, hopefully in 4 years, perhaps as much as 8, internal abuse of firearms by Americans on Americans will kill many times more American citizens within their own borders that will ever get killed within the US of A by terrorists.
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Old 7th Feb 2017, 18:18
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On a slight tangent, history now seems to suggest that it was Russia that was instrumental in the downfall of Hitler and at a far greater cost than suffered by the Western alliance.
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Old 7th Feb 2017, 18:56
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...history now seems to suggest that it was Russia that was instrumental in the downfall of Hitler...
America was the only country fighting Nazi Germany, I know that because I have seen films about it.
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Old 7th Feb 2017, 19:12
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Never mind.

Last edited by Fonsini; 7th Feb 2017 at 19:22.
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