Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Putin - Good guy or bad guy?

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Putin - Good guy or bad guy?

Old 9th Feb 2017, 00:23
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,383
Survival Rate of Soviet POWs

Being taken prisoner was a crime in Stalins eyes. Repatriated Soviet POWs that were not shot ended up in the gulags.
RatherBeFlying is online now  
Old 9th Feb 2017, 03:14
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vendee
Posts: 141
To quote Jimmy Hendrix: "Hey Joe. Where you goin' with that gun in your hand?"
Uncle Fred is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2017, 06:38
  #43 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 54
Posts: 1,692
Originally Posted by Uncle Fred View Post
To quote Jimmy Hendrix: "Hey Joe. Where you goin' with that gun in your hand?"
First stop, Poland.
vapilot2004 is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2017, 06:53
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On the Rump of Pendle Hill Lancashi
Posts: 615
It all went wrong in Russia soon after the Aurora fired its first shot..
Peter-RB is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2017, 07:02
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 75
Posts: 508
It all went wrong in Russia soon after the Aurora fired its first shot..
It can't be that bad, eventually they got Putin whereas the cousins got Trump.
John Hill is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2017, 09:46
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
Being taken prisoner was a crime in Stalins eyes. Repatriated Soviet POWs that were not shot ended up in the gulags.
You can confirm 100% death rate of them with some proof? BTW don't forget that Russans raped about 20 mln of German women.
Kulverstukas is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2017, 09:52
  #47 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 78
Posts: 1,870
Originally Posted by Kulverstukas View Post
You can confirm 100% death rate of them with some proof? BTW don't forget that Russans raped about 20 mln of German women.
Which must meant that many 'Germans' have Russian fathers?
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2017, 10:32
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
Which must meant that many 'Germans' have Russian fathers?
Here you are in the same trap as when they claim that Trump is Putin's puppet.
Kulverstukas is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2017, 09:44
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: all over Europe
Age: 38
Posts: 107
Well. While Gorbatchev and Jeltsin were celebrated in the West for carrying out reforms and closening ties with us, the ordinary Russian did not have the luxury of judging things by matters of "my society is nicer than yours". For them, it was simply a period of chaos, breakdown of services, worthless money and skyrocketing prices, looting of public goods by "businessmen" that the West also celebrates for their "entrepreneurialism" and billionaire wealth (Khodorkovsky anyone?), and so forth. Sorry for breaking the liberal identity-politics bubble, but people were literally starving.

Putin did one thing that the Russians will put above everything else: he tamed the chaos, he put a minimum level of accountability and order into the economy and by doing so, he created the first serious and succesful attempt for a Russian middle class. Can this be built in a few decades, like the moronic US "nationbuilding" concept suggests? Of course not. Does the intermediate period require strict governance? Yes it does. Can you have an "open society" at the same time, allowing foreign paid NGOs to "adjust" your society? Would be nice but you can´t.

Asking the Russians to govern like we do at this point is asking their young and able to return to a dog eat dog situation and their old and weak to suffer even more than they do in the first place. These people are impoverished, okay? They don´t care about the Baltic states or who corrupts whom in Ukraine. But they DO care that their government is being shunned internationally, because it destabilizes the country and its trade. The alternative to Putin (or people like him) at present is NOT what we would like to see, it is a worse kind of Mafia rule or no rule at all. I fear post-Putinism Russia more than I do present Russia.

Everybody who wants Putin removed please say who or what you want to replace him with or shut up. Everybody who thinks Russia is unilaterally and unprovokedly aggressive, sorry you´re politically illiterate for believing in one way streets.

"Good guy or bad guy" discussions, that´s just bread&circuses for people with degrees....
Krautwald is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2017, 09:48
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,471
Originally Posted by Krautwald View Post
Well. While Gorbatchev and Jeltsin were celebrated in the West for carrying out reforms and closening ties with us, the ordinary Russian did not have the luxury of judging things by matters of "my society is nicer than yours". For them, it was simply a period of chaos, breakdown of services, worthless money and skyrocketing prices, looting of public goods by "businessmen" that the West also celebrates for their "entrepreneurialism" and billionaire wealth (Khodorkovsky anyone?), and so forth. Sorry for breaking the liberal identity-politics bubble, but people were literally starving.

Putin did one thing that the Russians will put above everything else: he tamed the chaos, he put a minimum level of accountability and order into the economy and by doing so, he created the first serious and succesful attempt for a Russian middle class. Can this be built in a few decades, like the moronic US "nationbuilding" concept suggests? Of course not. Does the intermediate period require strict governance? Yes it does. Can you have an "open society" at the same time, allowing foreign paid NGOs to "adjust" your society? Would be nice but you can´t.

Asking the Russians to govern like we do at this point is asking their young and able to return to a dog eat dog situation and their old and weak to suffer even more than they do in the first place. These people are impoverished, okay? They don´t care about the Baltic states or who corrupts whom in Ukraine. But they DO care that their government is being shunned internationally, because it destabilizes the country and its trade. The alternative to Putin (or people like him) at present is NOT what we would like to see, it is a worse kind of Mafia rule or no rule at all. I fear post-Putinism Russia more than I do present Russia.

Everybody who wants Putin removed please say who or what you want to replace him with or shut up. Everybody who thinks Russia is unilaterally and unprovokedly aggressive, sorry you´re politically illiterate for believing in one way streets.

"Good guy or bad guy" discussions, that´s just bread&circuses for people with degrees....
Excellent mature post. If the west could wake up to this reality, and stop trying to return to the "comfort" of the cold war years we may all get on a deal better.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2017, 09:54
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: The EU
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Krautwald View Post
Well. Everybody who thinks Russia is unilaterally and unprovokedly aggressive, sorry you´re politically illiterate for believing in one way streets.
Interesting claim. Please evidence it.
Balgowan is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2017, 10:38
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Krautwald View Post
They don´t care about the Baltic states or who corrupts whom in Ukraine. But they DO care that their government is being shunned internationally, because it destabilizes the country and its trade.
Please remember why that has happened.

I think you make a fair point about Russian desire for strong leadership and stability. There is a school of thought, of course, that you sometimes need authoritarian ‘hard men’ to get things done, and whatever my distaste for Putin and his style of government I could hold my nose and live with it if his ambitions were purely internal.

Unfortunately, though, Putin has developed a taste for foreign adventurism. He clearly misses the global influence the Soviet Union once had and covets it’s return. While he could be using his domestic strength to reform and diversify the Russian economy and tackle it’s social problems, he has preferred to build up the military, intimidate and in one case invade his neighbours, and launch a campaign of propaganda, misinformation and political interference against the West.

The current sanctions are something that Putin himself brought down on Russia.
Andy_S is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2017, 11:00
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: all over Europe
Age: 38
Posts: 107
Foreign adventures and interventionism. A famous Russian invention, eh?

Putin is controlling his back yard. No less, no nice - but no more.

It is of course a legitimate position to expect Russia to
-accept the Ukraine to disintegrate
-just say "alright, take Crimea" and forget about the Russian majority in Eastern Ukraine and the Black Sea Fleet (do you even know what this Fleet means geopolitically?)
-be neutral in Syria (like...us, for example?)

...and all the other niceties everybody else sticks to because they are so afraid of clean and just sanctions (which, btw. in the case of Russia opened up EU trade contingents that the US went in and took - oops?)

But then say so and face your double standards.
Krautwald is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2017, 11:24
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Krautwald View Post
Foreign adventures and interventionism. A famous Russian invention, eh?
No, of course not. I never suggested it was. I'm just responding to your views on Putin.

Originally Posted by Krautwald View Post
Putin is controlling his back yard.
It's not "his" back yard. Russia does not have sovereignty over Eastern Europe.

Originally Posted by Krautwald View Post
It is of course a legitimate position to expect Russia to
-accept the Ukraine to disintegrate
The Ukraine wasn't disintegrating. The Ukrainian military had gained the upper hand over the rebels before Putin sent his own military across the border.

Originally Posted by Krautwald View Post
-just say "alright, take Crimea" and forget about the Russian majority in Eastern Ukraine
What Russian majority in Eastern Ukraine? Do you mean Russian speaking Ukranians? Different thing altogether. And he shouldn’t even have taken Crimea; to do so was totally illegal.

Originally Posted by Krautwald View Post
-be neutral in Syria (like...us, for example?)
Fair comment. A lot of different people have dicked in around Syria; Russia did so rather more effectively than anyone else.

Last edited by Andy_S; 24th Feb 2017 at 13:44.
Andy_S is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2017, 13:40
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vendee
Posts: 141
Well said Andy.
Uncle Fred is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.