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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:19
  #18781 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
NATO is a organisation to protect members form external threat.

Juncker has already said the EU army would be for internal uses.
So that EU member states can physically protect themselves from other EU member states. What kind of force is that?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:24
  #18782 (permalink)  
 
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France, Germany and Italy want ways to pay for common military missions abroad, to be able to use EU battlegroups for the first time and for industries to collaborate and develop weapons and helicopters that can be used by all EU armies.

EU states jealously protect their defence contractors, meaning the bloc has developed 178 different weapons systems, compared to 30 in the United States.

“Absurdly, there are more helicopter types than there are governments to buy them,” Juncker said.

Eurocopter Airbus and Eurofighter already exist to fill those roles, the fact that they havnt been more successful is due to the fact that they dont produce products which fit each countries needs. So if there is a slimming down of defence contractors whos contractors are you going to get rid of. France has always gone its own way with kit but they design bespoke products to suit French needs.

So that is already under way the issue is not kit its command and control of armed forces. Where would EU troops loyalties lie? will they have to swear an oath to the EU even if its against their own countries? The fact remains that trading blocs do not need armies, even the UN does not have one so why does the EU need one?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:50
  #18783 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
Representative democracy we can change by a single vote in a General Election, tell me how we change the EU?
How do you change the WTO? How do you change NATO? How do you change the UN? How do you change the Warsaw convention? The list just goes on and on forever doesn't it?
Very good point if the USA make demands for access to their market no doubt we will be happy to comply as long as its not the EU
WTO you have to answer to their court and obey their regulations
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:01
  #18784 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post
Very good point if the USA make demands for access to their market no doubt we will be happy to comply as long as its not the EU
We already comply with US demands when we access their market - just as we do in every other country in the world.

WTO you have to answer to their court and obey their
regulations
and the problem with that is?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:05
  #18785 (permalink)  
 
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So that EU member states can physically protect themselves from other EU member states. What kind of force is that?
No its to aid the internal security of a member country.

For example the current state in Spain.

The Spanish government have started moving armoured units into Catalonia.

Now Barcelona already has more than a few units based in it already so they obviously have issues about if those units are going to obey Madrid's instructions.

With a EU force they would be able to send a load of soldiers without links to the area or the issue and they would have no problems giving the local a good kicking to bring them into line.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:59
  #18786 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
No its to aid the internal security of a member country.

For example the current state in Spain.

The Spanish government have started moving armoured units into Catalonia.

Now Barcelona already has more than a few units based in it already so they obviously have issues about if those units are going to obey Madrid's instructions.

With a EU force they would be able to send a load of soldiers without links to the area or the issue and they would have no problems giving the local a good kicking to bring them into line.
As I stated several days ago, the EU are ‘ruling’ by force. What happens when the pro-Europeans realise that what they thought was a friendly ‘club’ is really a modern day USSR.

Even in the time I have left on this planet, I will see the above happen.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:32
  #18787 (permalink)  
 
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We already comply with US demands when we access their market - just as we do in every other country in the world.
We trade with USA through EU agreements not our own
As we fly into the USA under EU agreements not our own

But if course we are doing really badly under the EU with the USA

So badly May wants to copy and paste their agreements with Japan and CETA with Canada
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:47
  #18788 (permalink)  
 
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There is no agreement with Japan. Just a framework for further discussions. Which as the negotiation team were mostly ex UK civil servants from Hong Kong who are not staying with the EU it may take some time.

As we fly into the USA under EU agreements not our own
Which was only agreed so the Yanks could get Heathrow slots.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:49
  #18789 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
With a EU force they would be able to send a load of soldiers without links to the area or the issue and they would have no problems giving the local a good kicking to bring them into line.
You mean the EU would be able to send a load of soldiers to give the locals a kicking.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:52
  #18790 (permalink)  
 
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We trade with USA through EU agreements not our own
As we fly into the USA under EU agreements not our own
Err no we dont the US and EU failed to come to a trade agreement so we trade under WTO

Also Im pretty sure the US will want to keep fltying to the UK so a quick deal on that is likely too.
So badly May wants to copy and paste their agreements with Japan and CETA with Canada
We dont have an agreement with Japan either yet even though you keep claiming we do, Canada is a much smaller country and of course being part of the Commonwealth Im sure getting a quick agrrement wont be a problem, it certainly wont take the 7 years it took the EU.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:54
  #18791 (permalink)  
 
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https://qz.com/1086200/german-electi...tmare-victory/

Don't suppose it is any surprise to anyone, and no doubt they will recover better than the UK could, I suppose some would say.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:07
  #18792 (permalink)  
 
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What is the point of the thread...the question has been posed...
Indeed. I have asked the very same question to myself in the morning whilst i perform my ablutions.
Alas, i could not the answer find.
Except maybe to humour a part time pilot
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:07
  #18793 (permalink)  
 
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yep.

The general of Spanish army has already said that force is not the way to solve the issues there just now which is pretty dam near mutiny for a senior officer giving a political comment like that. Its pretty obvious he thinks it could get blue on blue very quickly.

20% of the Spanish GDP gone over night along with 11% of its population.

31st is going to be an interesting day for the EU how it deals with it.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:15
  #18794 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by D SQDRN 97th IOTC View Post
What is the point of the thread...the question has been posed...
Indeed. I have asked the very same question to myself in the morning whilst i perform my ablutions.
Alas, i could not the answer find.
Except maybe to humour a part time pilot
In all honesty one could ask that question about several threads within PPRuNe, but if we did not have them how long would a forum last, and what else would people do to amuse themselves when they have a spare moment, or are bored?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:18
  #18795 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
yep.

The general of Spanish army has already said that force is not the way to solve the issues there just now which is pretty dam near mutiny for a senior officer giving a political comment like that. Its pretty obvious he thinks it could get blue on blue very quickly.

20% of the Spanish GDP gone over night along with 11% of its population.

31st is going to be an interesting day for the EU how it deals with it.
I cannot see how you can ultimately keep the Catalonians inside Spain if their heartfelt desire is to become independent. It may well be that that is not the wish of the majority. I guess going OT on this thread so no more from me here.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:26
  #18796 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
So again unless you are going to use it for something outside the current NATO remit (such as internal policing) why divert money that could be used for troops to organisation?
We want to have 'control of our destiny'? Security in Europe needs to work for Europe, not for the USA?

Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post

You can leave each and every one of those should you wish, just as we are leaving the EU
But there has to be a limit on how many organisations you can leave. I mean even North Korea is in the UN.


Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post

If those crimes can be backed up by sufficent evidence then I would expect Poland to extradite them just as we do with other countries but the EAW is different as you do not need to provide that evidence before getting someone extradited.
Rob, but originally you said:

Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
Actually yes it is because it allows UK citizens to be extradited for crimes that are not crimes in the UK and on charges that would not stand up in a UK court.
Now there are a lot of crimes which attract much more severe punishment in the UK than in Poland, in many respects your procedure is alien to us, finally there are cases where some act will be a crime in your laws but not in ours.

Do you therefore accept that if any of the above hold we are entitled to deny extradition?


Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
We can do cooperation without a combined force, we do it at the moment on a regular basis as for a lot of EU countries not being in NATO there are only 5 states 3 of whcih have strong histories of neutrality and Cyprus and Malta are not really that big are they. But that begs the question of would countries like Ireland and Sweeden be compelled to join in this EU army scheme?
Rob I do not know what the remit of this 'European Army' will be. And I do not know what cooperation options we currently have nor what their strong and weak sides are.

I would imagine it would lie in the best interests of for example Sweden and Austria to patrol the south borders of Europe. Let's let them have a say.

Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
Well as a nett reciever of EU grant money I can appreciate that but what happens when that money runs out and you are asked to contribute?
I wasn't actually thinking of that. More about the fact we happen to be placed between two blocs and being neutral isn't really an option.

If we become a net EU contributor within the next two decades then it will be a success story of being in the EU. Look at Belarus - we were on the same level a couple of decades back.


Rob, frankly I think the whole EU Army thing is a big storm in a small teacup. It will really be down to cooperation between national armies and also a framework for financing specific national army activity out of the EU budget. And shared procurement.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:43
  #18797 (permalink)  
 
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We want to have 'control of our destiny'? Security in Europe needs to work for Europe, not for the USA?
Ok so tell me how you are going to do that without the USA and UK? Nobody is saying there will be more money available for this new force so how are you going to cover the 35000 US and 5000 uk troops not to mention all the hardware aircraft and naval forces. Putin must be rubbing his hands at the prospect.

But there has to be a limit on how many organisations you can leave. I mean even North Korea is in the UN.
Why? no one if forcing you to be a member of any organisation. But if there was then the EU is obviously not top of the list for the rest of the world.

Now there are a lot of crimes which attract much more severe punishment in the UK than in Poland, in many respects your procedure is alien to us, finally there are cases where some act will be a crime in your laws but not in ours.

Do you therefore accept that if any of the above hold we are entitled to deny extradition?
If you commit a crime in somebody elses country and there is enough evidence to persuade the host country that on the balance of probabilities you did then yes, what I am against is extraditinf someone on flimsy or no evidence at all.

Rob I do not know what the remit of this 'European Army' will be. And I do not know what cooperation options we currently have nor what their strong and weak sides are.
I would imagine it would lie in the best interests of for example Sweden and Austria to patrol the south borders of Europe. Let's let them have a say.
But thats the point GS, at the moment they can join or not any operation they wish, when they are part of a combined force they go where they are told.

I wasn't actually thinking of that. More about the fact we happen to be placed between two blocs and being neutral isn't really an option.
If we become a net EU contributor within the next two decades then it will be a success story of being in the EU. Look at Belarus - we were on the same level a couple of decades back.
You didnt have to be part of the EU as its not (at the moment a military bloc) you just had to be part of NATO When things started to warm up with the Russians it wsnt the EU who sent forces to bolster the border it was NATO with most coming from the US and UK.



Rob, frankly I think the whole EU Army thing is a big storm in a small teacup. It will really be down to cooperation between national armies and also a framework for financing specific national army activity out of the EU budget. And shared procurement.
GS thats what NATO is for everything you want is done at NATO level why duplicate it?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:46
  #18798 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
So that is already under way the issue is not kit its command and control of armed forces. Where would EU troops loyalties lie? will they have to swear an oath to the EU even if its against their own countries? The fact remains that trading blocs do not need armies, even the UN does not have one so why does the EU need one?
I presume it will work the same way as in NATO. A legacy of the way it worked when soldiers from various nations were grouping up in the UK to head out for the beaches in Normandy. Or the way the Polish pilots were fighting in the Battle of Britain. And hundreds if not thousands of other such situations. UK, USA, Polish soldiers in Iraq for example.

It can be done. It is not that difficult.

The EU is not just a trading bloc. It is more than that. Trade was the catalyst for integration. Don't try to take away my wealth, let's trade together and then we can both become more wealthy. But it goes further - science, research, education, environment, security, administration, law. How can you enter with someone into a meaningful partnership and not worry about their security? Didn't the British offer some kind of protectorate to the Colonies?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:56
  #18799 (permalink)  
 
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I presume it will work the same way as in NATO. A legacy of the way it worked when soldiers from various nations were grouping up in the UK to head out for the beaches in Normandy. Or the way the Polish pilots were fighting in the Battle of Britain. And hundreds if not thousands of other such situations. UK, USA, Polish soldiers in Iraq for example.
NATO is independent of any nation state the EU army wont be

It can be done. It is not that difficult.

The EU is not just a trading bloc. It is more than that. Trade was the catalyst for integration. Don't try to take away my wealth, let's trade together and then we can both become more wealthy. But it goes further - science, research, education, environment, security, administration, law. How can you enter with someone into a meaningful partnership and not worry about their security? Didn't the British offer some kind of protectorate to the Colonies?
So you accept that the EU will by ever closer integration become another state whos laws will be made by an unelected commission who decides what parties recieves funding according to their loyalty to the EU ideal and enforces its decrees with its own armed forces. Now that sounds very like a EUSSR to me, isnt that something you want to avoid by being part of NATO.

As for British protection of its colonies, yes we do but they are still part of the UK, if you are thinking commonwealth countries again yes we will but they are independent and have their own forces too.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 20:07
  #18800 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
Ok so tell me how you are going to do that without the USA and UK? Nobody is saying there will be more money available for this new force so how are you going to cover the 35000 US and 5000 uk troops not to mention all the hardware aircraft and naval forces. Putin must be rubbing his hands at the prospect.
We're the second largest economy in the world. And just about the same size as the USA, with more people. We're no longer just a bunch of small nations. It's not an option, it is a necessity.

Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
Why? no one if forcing you to be a member of any organisation. But if there was then the EU is obviously not top of the list for the rest of the world.
Good luck then.

Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
If you commit a crime in somebody elses country and there is enough evidence to persuade the host country that on the balance of probabilities you did then yes, what I am against is extraditinf someone on flimsy or no evidence at all.
OK, so you are backing out a bit. The issue is formal, not in principal.

Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
But thats the point GS, at the moment they can join or not any operation they wish, when they are part of a combined force they go where they are told.
The current arrangements and procedures are beyond my knowledge. If what you say is true - well I would certainly prefer to hear details/facts of that than some fantasy of EU armies invading my country.

Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
You didnt have to be part of the EU as its not (at the moment a military bloc) you just had to be part of NATO When things started to warm up with the Russians it wsnt the EU who sent forces to bolster the border it was NATO with most coming from the US and UK.
We are, of course. But then Trump came along and put the whole arrangement under a bit of a question mark. We are a bit oversensitive to allies betraying us. So I prefer to hedge my bets. Russians in Warsaw are a greater threat to Berlin than to Washington.

Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
GS thats what NATO is for everything you want is done at NATO level why duplicate it?
The opposite of Divide and conquer. The USA vs 20 odd small partners is different to the USA vs 1 big partner.

But more specifically - during the whole migrant crisis thing I don't recall NATO being mentioned even once. Was it within the remit of NATO?
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