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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

Old 10th Dec 2016, 11:37
  #5401 (permalink)  
 
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Krystal, the way I read that Guardian article is that even if we stayed within the EU we would have to apply and pay as we are not in the Schengen area.

The scheme would cover all visitors to the passport-free 26-nation Schengen zone of which Britain is not a member from countries that do not need a visa to enter, EU sources confirmed.
What I really do not like with this brexit is that May has spent all her time trying to stifle the wishes of half the people and has tried every trick in the book to stifle Parliament and its involvement in shaping our future relationship with Europe
What would have happened if Remain had won? Can you seriously imagine DC and Osbourne saying nearly half of the population needs to be listened to? No we would have been told that the people had spoken, get back in your box and shut up.

I
It has been a very divisive government , creating a divided society with one side very unhappy!
Instead of being open and listening to the wishes of those people which they should use in forming policy for brexit
But the government has listened to the wishes of the people, the people voted to leave so leave we will. Once again there would have been no debate on how we wished to remain so why should we listen to the same people who shut down all debate for 40 years.

I
t has been a very divisive government , creating a divided society with one side very unhappy!
Instead of being open and listening to the wishes of those people which they should use in forming policy for brexit
This way will lead to the breakup of the union
Any way isn't that the principal of popularism ? To divide and shrink ? To be inward looking ? To promote hatred and discontent
In the union we have our own mini EU
So why not follow your principals and see the demise of not only the EU but our own mini EU in the form of the Union
Let them detach from little England ?
Thinking about it London voted vastly against leave
London could become a Monaco ?
All good populist principles of divide and shrink ?
Ah the populism insult I wondered how long that would take to surface here.

It's not ok for the nasty EU to force its policies on us but it's ok for us to force policies on our own Union
We are turning out far worse than anything I have seen from the EU who are far more compassionate
But didnt Scotland recently vote to remain in the UK, it can have another vote should it wish at a later date.

The above is rubbish ! What is democracy about ? Accepting what you are told and shutting up
You mean like the majority of the population has had to do for 40 years? Democracy is about having the ability to vote and change things, something impossible while we remain in the EU


Roughly half the country didn't want this ignore that at your peril
Only Brexit was voted on
If May is really bothered about the will of the people accepting brexit why doesn't she get the people's wishes in a referendum on the type of relationship they want with the EU ?
Here we go again, the poor uninformed racist leave voters didn't know what they were voting for and didnt understand the consequences. We fully understood what leave entailed, it was drummed into us by both sides before the referendum but just in case you have forgotten

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUI5A1Gd5D0
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 11:48
  #5402 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like one of our local MPs has changed his mind. I think Leigh voted about 66% leave so maybe he is listening to his electorate

Brexit: Andy Burnham says leaving single market will benefit economy | UK | News | Daily Express
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 12:08
  #5403 (permalink)  
 
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So he will make London the services centre while the North the manufacturing centre ? Whats he going to do to facilitate that? Abolish the minimum wage so we can compete ?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 12:15
  #5404 (permalink)  
 
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Pace,

You are showing your ignorance.

Firstly you couldn't be arsed to vote. If you are as clever as you think you are you would have realise that your vote and the other millions of others could have made a difference. It might have gone the other way, we will never know.

Secondly, what part of the in/out vote wasn't democratic? If you had read my post you would have realised my question was at what point should the minority not have a say? And who decides that figure, you?

If you are suggesting that everyone who has a different point of view than that of the majority should be represented, explain how that is going to work?

Like a lot of people on here I have lived around the world. I am not sure if anyone has found the perfect democratic society, if one exists. I enjoyed Singapore. Democracy? Not really but it works(ed).

BREXIT would work a damn sight better if everyone pulled in the same direction rather a few who are trying their best, for their own benefit, to make it fail.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 12:18
  #5405 (permalink)  
 
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Is it so difficult?

Don't know about you, but in the real world it seems all too bloody easy.
EU or non EU. That was a main reason why people voted LEAVE.

One thing for sure....I know dozens or American bankers who live and work in London Paris and Amsterdam for financial institutions. Plus families.....
French government loves them because they pay loads of tax....and right now the red carpet is being rolled out to them.
But no red socialist carpet for UK employers.....
UK companies are not so welcome....some of their UK "passports" will not be recognised in a couple of years.

At the other end of the spectrum, if you are non EU, and cannot afford to support your family, they are not very welcome to migrate along with the bread winner.

Seldom. I don't see the point you are making apart from having a rant. Who is hand wringing ..
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 12:24
  #5406 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mrangryofwarlingham View Post

At the other end of the spectrum, if you are non EU, and cannot afford to support your family, they are not very welcome to migrate along with the bread winner.
Why is that a bad thing?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 12:26
  #5407 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
Looks like one of our local MPs has changed his mind. I think Leigh voted about 66% leave so maybe he is listening to his electorate

Brexit: Andy Burnham says leaving single market will benefit economy | UK | News | Daily Express
No, he is covering his backside in preparation for the next election. As it is Labour voters he will be appealing to, he doesn't have to worry too much about integrity.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 12:30
  #5408 (permalink)  
 
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Is it a bad thing

Didn't say it was.
Didn't say it wasn't.
Just the way it is.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 17:06
  #5409 (permalink)  
 
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No, he is covering his backside in preparation for the next election. As it is Labour voters he will be appealing to, he doesn't have to worry too much about integrity.
I dont think he will be standing in the next election because he is bailing to fight the Manchester Mayoral election.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 17:54
  #5410 (permalink)  
 
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BREXIT would work a damn sight better if everyone pulled in the same direction rather a few who are trying their best, for their own benefit, to make it fail.
And the UK may have got much more out of the EEC / EU if it had pulled in the same direction rather than railing at every other piece of (often perfectly rational) policy!
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 19:09
  #5411 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
And the UK may have got much more out of the EEC / EU if it had pulled in the same direction rather than railing at every other piece of (often perfectly rational) policy!
Although I'm vehemently opposed to the absolute Federalist ideals that the big players within the EU leadership aspire to, I have to agree that we did put up opposition to things that weren't actually that bad.

The problem I found, as a Notified Body and someone intimately involved in EU rule-making, was that much of it was deliberately made overly-complex and there as a very strong influence from EU companies on the rule making committees. Often things like safety, cost impact to the consumer, etc, were over-ridden by commercial interests. Having come from a UK system,where standards were set with the dual aims of consumer safety and minimal consumer cost impact, I found the EU system down right offensive to my sensibilities at times. The final straw, for me, was giving evidence at a Fatal Accident Enquiry, where I had to admit that the reduction in safety standards that had resulted from the introduction of EU regulations had, probably, resulted in a delay of several hours before the MRCC at Kinloss had received an EPIRB alert, and that this had probably contributed to the death of the crew of a capsized trawler.

When I put my "X" in the leave box on the ballot paper, it was the faces of those families I faced in that courtroom that came to mind, as one very good reason to be out of the EU.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 21:58
  #5412 (permalink)  
 
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and, inevitably a reference to "project fear" made a mandatory appearance.
Followed, inevitably, by a mandatory appearance of a link to "The Guardian"
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 23:31
  #5413 (permalink)  
 
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The day when we are capable of having a United Kingdom of Great Britain incorporating England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland under a single sovereign legislature is the day when prospects for a united Europe start to become more than a distant dream.
1801-1922 comes to mind, it was called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.


EU negotiators will offer Brits an individual opt-in to remain EU citizens, chief negotiator confirms - The Independent
https://apple.news/A24iyp68kRay_wqhe0NQw1Q
No such thing as a "EU citizen" - yet. We are citizens of 28 (soon to be 27) individual countries. Obviously it is part of the great plan for a European superstate, but we're not there yet.

We are turning into an unfriendly bunch
That is a nice gesture towards the 48%
We seem devoid of any niceness towards our fellow Europeans

I have to say there is a certain nastiness with brexit
Not a nice gesture at all, to anyone: wait till you get the bill.



Kelvin

I don't really know what the purpose is or what the EU will get out of it ? Has anyone any idea of the cost of that membership ?
Is it something they hope we will reciprocate on ?
It's an attempt to undermine the brexit process, nothing more nothing less, and it is not going to happen.



Its a bit of mischief making but if duel citizenship is like the American model then you have to pay taxes to the EU as well as the UK, cant see many people going for it can you?
.......as Boris will tell you.

India has an arrangement for the diaspora, there is a status called "Person of Indian Origin" (PIO) for people with an Indian citizen parent/grandparent, dead or alive, that confers certain advantages such as visa-free travel, no hassle opening bank accounts, investment opportunities, property rights, etc.,etc.. Not sure if it confers rights of residency/work permits.

India is a sovereign country. "Person of EU origin"? Don't think so. Mischief making sounds about right.


All you Europhiles, go, go now. Just don't expect to be allowed to travel freely back to the UK when the rest of us leave the EU.
Don't mind the europhiles coming back, may have an issue with those fighting for "daesh" in Syria returning, "jihadi John" and co..



Mr Verhofstadt told a meeting of the European parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs on Thursday that he would ensure associate citizenship status was “on the table” for the Brexit talks. “Some things cannot wait until treaty change,” Mr Verhofstadt said.........
Don't see why the issue should be raised at brexit negotiations. There is nothing to negotiate: the EU either offers it to make mischief, or it doesn't. If it does, the UK can't stop it.


The EU ESTA makes eminent sense from a security point of view and will cost peanuts in the big scheme of life and is yet another in a long list of straw clutching Project Fear bolleaux.
It would actually be a "schenghen" electronic travel authority (ETA) rather than an "EU" one, as it would include Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Leitchenstein, but exclude (for now) Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania and Cyprus as well as Ireland and the UK.

Australia has had an ETA system for ages, and until recently, it was free.


I just had a quick peek at my passport and it states I am a British Citizen. The front cover does say European Union but nowhere does it label me as an EU citizen.
Because there is no such thing at present. Also it says "British Citizen", not "British subject".


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.e...?client=safari

Maybe as Northern Irish don't want Brexit as neither do Scotland Northern Ireland should rejoin Southern Ireland and Scotland could join that block too ?
Why? There's nothing to be gained. Both have voted to remain part of the UK.



There isn't going to be any associate citizenship, it will never be agreed by the member states. It's a wind up to catch out adults that still believe in Santa
Correct, and "adults that still believe in Santa" is a novel new way of describing remainers.



Krystal, the way I read that Guardian article is that even if we stayed within the EU we would have to apply and pay as we are not in the Schengen area.
Indeed, just like Ireland, plus Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania and Cyprus for now.


Looks like one of our local MPs has changed his mind. I think Leigh voted about 66% leave so maybe he is listening to his electorate

Brexit: Andy Burnham says leaving single market will benefit economy | UK | News | Daily Express
Pointless poll in that article, it did not include a "none of them" option. Mind you, had it offered that option, it would have won by a landslide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Courtney
Looks like one of our local MPs has changed his mind. I think Leigh voted about 66% leave so maybe he is listening to his electorate

Brexit: Andy Burnham says leaving single market will benefit economy | UK | News | Daily Express


No, he is covering his backside in preparation for the next election. As it is Labour voters he will be appealing to, he doesn't have to worry too much about integrity.
Probably more to with his bid to be viceroy, oops sorry, mayor of Manchester, most districts of which are seriously euro-sceptic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ATNotts
And the UK may have got much more out of the EEC / EU if it had pulled in the same direction rather than railing at every other piece of (often perfectly rational) policy!

Although I'm vehemently opposed to the absolute Federalist ideals that the big players within the EU leadership aspire to, I have to agree that we did put up opposition to things that weren't actually that bad.
The majority of EU member country establishments, elites and vested interests are completely wedded to the concept of a European superstate. Unfortunately, their citizens aren't.

On the other hand, the UK and other northern Europe countries such as Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, see it much more in terms of trade and business, hence in the case of brexit, the obsession with the single market.

Norway failed to join the EU in 1973 because its citizens voted against, but it had gone through the accession process with the UK, Ireland and Denmark. Ireland, Denmark and Norway applied to join in 1973 because of the strong trading and business links with the UK. Sweden (and Finland) joined much later, in 1995, again because of strong trade and business links with Denmark, Norway, the UK and Ireland. Norway never managed to convince its sensible citizens to join, hence the dodgy relationship we know as "the Norway option".

Charles De Gaulle knew that the UK had a long deep-seated hostility to the concept of a single dominant European power. Because of history this antipathy goes back centuries. De Gaulle saw it at first hand ("we will never surrender") when in exile in London from 1940 to 1944 as leader of the Free French .

Hence he was right to veto the UK's applications in 1961 and 1967. It's a crying shame that his successor, Georges Pompidou, did not do the same to the third application in 1971.
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 06:56
  #5414 (permalink)  
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" to be viceroy, oops, mayor of Manchester, most districts of which are seriously euro-sceptic "

Are they now ?

In your unstinting efforts to procrastinate, sadly you have omitted to include the facts......although as this is JB, this will be of no concern to the bulk of the readership.

There again, those of us who come from Manchester have somewhat different perspective to your "hilarious" term above, not forgetting a far more open minded and cosmopolitan stance on life....and reality.

EU Referendum: North West towns vote Leave as cities votes Remain - BBC News
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 10:14
  #5415 (permalink)  
 
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Depends how you define City Krystal, the Manchester-Liverpool conurbation is very densely populated but divided into lots of small areas, I for instance have a Manchester postcode and a lot of people in my area commute into Manchester, likewise Liverpool. All these areas votes leave, it is only a very small area in the actual city centres that didn't. Overall 58% in the area voted leave, that would just about encompass the same number of people in the London area so I would say Andy Burnham is bang on the money with his assessment.
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 10:29
  #5416 (permalink)  
 
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Why? There's nothing to be gained. Both have voted to remain part of the UK.
Frank replace have with DID !
My comments were a semi serious point
All the talk is populism ?
Brexiteers are highly critical of the EU yet we are no better
We have our own mini EU in the Union

There is only 12 miles between Scotland, Northern Ireland and no borders to Southern Ireland
I am sure a 12 mile bridge could connect so a stronger new block can be formed as part of the EU between the 3
Why should they have to put up with a dictatorial government who listens to no one but it's own view anymore than we have put up with the dictatorial EU

Populism ? Let's hold with this new modern way forward principal and break off Scotland and Northern Ireland and craft London into a Monaco as an independent EU member
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 10:51
  #5417 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting legal skirmishing at the moment:

1. Supreme Court deliberating, with the papers apparently knowing their mind and speculating it will be a split decision 7:4 against the Government.

2. A London QC is looking for crowdfunding that will enable a case in the Southern Irish High Court with a view to getting it referred to the ECJ by arguing:
a. A50 has already effectively been invoked and the EU are not negotiating properly; or

b. A50 has not yet been invoked therefore the EU should not be excluding UK from EU Council meetings.
3. Another London High Court case to be launched seeking to prevent the Government leaving the Single Market as that was not on the ballot paper on 23 Jun.

This really is a gripping year.
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 10:59
  #5418 (permalink)  
 
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Poll suggests public will not accept a Brexit that leaves them worse off - the guardian
https://apple.news/AZH3ug-fJSdmK_cUkdoDduQ

Ok Guardian so I am sure it will be rubbished here but maybe public opinion on the sort of brexit sought and the red lines should be sought and not the one view of this dictatorial one tracked Government

There is talk of the Gicernment going to the country
Can't see how they can do that unless they are unable to govern
Labour really need to dump their liability Corbyn so that there is an electable opposition if that was the case
Surely they must be getting the message on Corbyn
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 11:05
  #5419 (permalink)  
 
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Good grief, 52% of the country who voted did so in the full knowledge that there was a better than even chance there would be some initial financial pain. The feckin straw clutching going on in here and the rest of the country is quite embarrassing to watch.
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 11:17
  #5420 (permalink)  
 
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Are you two still hogging that phone box?

Someone might need to make a call.
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