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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

Old 10th Dec 2016, 08:45
  #5381 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by engineer(retard) View Post
Being a U.K. and EU citizen is not inextricably linked as you will soon find out. I cannot think of any instance where being an EU citizen has been of any benefit when traveling the globe.
I have, either with work or for leisure, been as far west as Honolulu and as far east as Brunei and in hundreds of destinations in between and not once in all those travels has me being an EU citizen been of any benefit over and above my UK citizenship.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 09:16
  #5382 (permalink)  
 
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I just had a quick peek at my passport and it states I am a British Citizen. The front cover does say European Union but nowhere does it label me as an EU citizen.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 09:34
  #5383 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.e...?client=safari

Maybe as Northern Irish don't want Brexit as neither do Scotland Northern Ireland should rejoin Southern Ireland and Scotland could join that block too ?

How are the wishes of nearly half the population being addressed by this divisive destructive govenment ?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 09:39
  #5384 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post

How are the wishes of nearly half the population being addressed by this divisive destructive govenment ?
How are the wishes of just over half those who voted on June 223rd being treated by this progressive forward thinking government?

It's all about perspective
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 09:40
  #5385 (permalink)  
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engineer....

Strangely enough I am aware of the fact that, once we leave the EU, EU citizenship will cease for UK citizens.....something I am far from being in favour of.

Yet another travelogue however, telling us all what we already know about travelling in Europe........ as matters currently stand that is.

Of course, the not so little matter of changes to UK citizens status as travellers, around our own Continent, the UK being part of the Continent of Europe less some on here are geographically challenged in this respect, being glossed over as being somehow irrelevant.

And not forgetting that, whilst most of these travelogues were c/o HM Gov't and the military, where different rules apply as does the level of support should anything untoward happen, civilians do not have this support if and when required.

As for being an EU citizen, it's classed as an additional right, one that I am very much in favour of retaining as a UK citizen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...European_Union
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 09:47
  #5386 (permalink)  
 
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Does the wishes of nearly half the population really matter? We operate (like it or not) a first past the post system. So, if in a local by-election, the other lot wins, I have to accept that my candidate failed and we must respect the wishes of the majority. Doesn't this same system apply in many other walks of life too? If the High Court or Supreme Court are asked to rule on a matter, there can be a majority ruling. If one or more of the judges dissent, they can publish their dissent, giving their reasons. It doesn't alter the final outcome. Even juries can be asked to produce a majority ruling. If one or more jurors disagree, it doesn't make the guilty party any less guilty.
Taking into account and trying to accommodate the wishes of the minority is tantamount to PR. And where does that get anyone? Italy or Belgium?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 09:49
  #5387 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Of course, the not so little matter of changes to UK citizens status as travellers, around our own Continent, the UK being part of the Continent of Europe less some on here are geographically challenged in this respect, being glossed over as being somehow irrelevant.
Glossed over or simply clarified?

Do feel free to highlight the factual inaccuracies of my previous post
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:04
  #5388 (permalink)  
 
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Freedom of movement

There is a difference from swanning around on holiday, and taking up residence and having a job.
Of course anyone that gets into an EU country that has signed up to the Schengen Agreement, can move across borders without showing a passport.
Several EU countries are non Schengen...you need a passport to cross the border.
If you are a citizen of an EU country you don't need a visa to get in and swan around, or take up residence. Or get a job. You have a right to freedom of movement.
If you are not such a citizen, then you need a visa. The EU countries that are part of Schengen have a common visa policy.
And the visa will say what rights you have to swan around (normally not a problem) but not so easy to take up residence or get a job.
In this sense, there is no freedom of movement.
I think even a 6 year old can understand this.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:07
  #5389 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by edi_local View Post
I imagine the point of it is so people can retain EU benefits at a price. I mean for many this EU stuff is nothing but foreginers dicating to the UK/A waste of time/Money/Gravy Train/whatever the Daily Express is moaning about, but to many it was actually a system which they benefited from and now they face challenges retaining what they have and quite literally cannot just "get over it". I think the winning side needs to realise that lots of people will actually, geuninely lose out on this. It's not all trade deals. Peoples lives were actually moulded by the freedom to move around the EU, many families exist purely because of the ability they had to come from poorer countries and live/study/work here or vice versa. These kinds of things were not as freely available even just 20 or so years ago when much of Europe was still fairly closed off.

I for one, and I know plenty of others, would be willing to pay to retain the rights we currently have which some people feel we shouldn't. I quite like the idea of being able to leave the UK at the drop of a hat with minimal fuss and freely enter one of another 30 or so nations at my pick and be treated equally as soon as I step off the plane, should things here start to turn a bit iffy, which I feel they will as soon as we are out the door. The UK, of course, won't offer a single thing in return to EU nationals, so I expect the price to be quiet high, but in my opinion unlimited access to the EU is a price worth paying and I'd be happy to pay fairly high for it.

Afterall people pay highly to obtain documents and permits to settle in other countries around the world, for me Europe always has been attractive and I don't want my options cut off on some pathetic UKIP/Tory whim which is looking more and more likely each day. No matter how you look at it in a few years UK workers will not be attractive to European companies as we will have an extra hurdle to clear to get in the door. At least if any associate membership comes about, it gives those who want it the chance to have an equal footing. Remember those of you who loathe all things EU don't have to have it if it comes about, it won't cost you a penny to let others enjoy these benefits, so don't feel the need to try and speak out against the Idea or demand it doesn't happen. I would certainly get much more benefit out of that than being limited to just the freedom to move around the UK.
So now its going from 'free' movement of people to 'fee' movement of people.

In other words, buy associate citizenship of the EU (though how one buys citizenship of a country that does not physically exist must be some sort of first)and you can come in and enjoy all sorts of benefits. I can see the attraction of this if it suits you. But I can't see the UK offering associate citizenship to residents of mainland Europe in return because all that amounts to is another way of losing control of immigration numbers. Or does that make me a racist?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:12
  #5390 (permalink)  
 
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KnC, my son lives in Berlin and works with Japanese, Chinese, American and Canadians geeks, working and moving around the EU is not a drama even if you're not an EU citizen. I see very little practical value in your additional rights as an EU citizen and am entirely unconcerned about losing them. However, there are measures that you can take if you wish to remain an EU citizen such as finding a long lost Irish grandmother, why don't you try that route?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:14
  #5391 (permalink)  
 
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There isn't going to be any associate citizenship, it will never be agreed by the member states. It's a wind up to catch out adults that still believe in Santa
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:16
  #5392 (permalink)  
 
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Kevin

There is a massive difference between Brexit and local or general elections where a first past the post system is used
Local or general elections are on a time limited basis meaning people get regular chances to kick out government if they don't like what they are doing !
Whatever this government structure as our relationship with Europe we basically stuck with unless you fancy allowing another referendum in five years ?

What I really do not like with this brexit is that May has spent all her time trying to stifle the wishes of half the people and has tried every trick in the book to stifle Parliament and its involvement in shaping our future relationship with Europe

It has been a very divisive government , creating a divided society with one side very unhappy!
Instead of being open and listening to the wishes of those people which they should use in forming policy for brexit
This way will lead to the breakup of the union
Any way isn't that the principal of popularism ? To divide and shrink ? To be inward looking ? To promote hatred and discontent
In the union we have our own mini EU
So why not follow your principals and see the demise of not only the EU but our own mini EU in the form of the Union
Let them detach from little England ?
Thinking about it London voted vastly against leave
London could become a Monaco ?
All good populist principles of divide and shrink ?

It's not ok for the nasty EU to force its policies on us but it's ok for us to force policies on our own Union
We are turning out far worse than anything I have seen from the EU who are far more compassionate

Theresa May should be ashamed of herself two faced woman that she is

Last edited by Pace; 10th Dec 2016 at 10:28.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:22
  #5393 (permalink)  
 
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If you're not a citizen of an EU country

Yes, you can still move around and work subject to having a visa.
No real drama.
Except the visa costs and there is no right to have one, and often they are of limited duration. For example a working visa may be limited to a few years only.....
So if you had a family, and knew you could only work somewhere for a couple of years, you might not want to completely relocate your wife and children....
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:23
  #5394 (permalink)  
 
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Santa

Wait
Stop
You mean there's no Santa?
You'll be telling me there's no tooth fairy next...
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:30
  #5395 (permalink)  
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Mr Angry. Sit down. It's time we had a little chat...
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:38
  #5396 (permalink)  
 
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This talk of considering the losers with regards to percentages.
Maybe you could let us know at what stage do the losers just have to put up and shut up. Maybe it should be 65% - 35%? Or 80 - 20%?

You will never please all the people. There has to be line and that happens to be judged as a majority. And you wonder why there is so much aggression around with people. They don't seem to have been taught that you can't have everything YOUR way.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 11:18
  #5397 (permalink)  
 
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With all the hand wringing being displayed here you have to wonder how anyone from the UK ever got a job and relocated their family to any other country outside the EU ever.

Or conversely because apparently its oh so bloody difficult how on earth do non EU citizens ever get to come work and live in the EU.

Some folk on here really do need to have a word with themselves.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 11:18
  #5398 (permalink)  
 
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You will never please all the people. There has to be line and that happens to be judged as a majority. And you wonder why there is so much aggression around with people. They don't seem to have been taught that you can't have everything YOUR way.
The above is rubbish ! What is democracy about ? Accepting what you are told and shutting up
Isn't that what the case was in Russia ?
Roughly half the country didn't want this ignore that at your peril
Only Brexit was voted on
If May is really bothered about the will of the people accepting brexit why doesn't she get the people's wishes in a referendum on the type of relationship they want with the EU ?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 11:33
  #5399 (permalink)  
 
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Why are people still confused as to what Brexit means, still cannot fathom why that would be.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 11:33
  #5400 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post
The above is rubbish ! What is democracy about ? Accepting what you are told and shutting up
Isn't that what the case was in Russia ?
Roughly half the country didn't want this ignore that at your peril
Only Brexit was voted on
If May is really bothered about the will of the people accepting brexit why doesn't she get the people's wishes in a referendum on the type of relationship they want with the EU ?
A majority vote is a majority vote, and is the way we run our democracy, and the way democracies around the world work as well. For those that voted for the losing side, then it's really just tough, they lost and they have to put up with what the majority want and learn to live with it.

It's always been like that for as long as we've had elections - often a large minority of the population don't like the outcome, and they have to learn to live with it, or go and live somewhere else under someone else's system.

For a while I lived in a place that was a dictatorship. Not too bad, people there just accepted that they had no say at all in how anything was run. I never heard any real complaints, the country had never had democracy and so didn't miss it.

What really angers me are all the people that don't bother to vote and then whine endlessly about the outcome. Around a 1/4 to a 1/3 of UK voters don't bother to vote, and a fair few of them then have the temerity to complain about the government they get, or, as in this case, the result of a referendum.

I've no time at all for people who take no part in the democratic processes that form the way we are governed, and yet still complain bitterly at every opportunity about how "wrong" it all is. If you want to change something, then get out and vote, or else just shut up and accept what others decide for you.
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