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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

Old 9th Dec 2016, 19:19
  #5361 (permalink)  
 
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Funnily enough, Europe is largely divided up along ethnic, cultural and geophysical lines, where the populations within those areas share a common currency, standard of living, and similar aims and aspirations. We call those lines borders and the areas delineated by those borders countries.

Now that is a system that has existed for many centuries and it has largely worked out pretty well, with occasional conflicts confined to local disputes. Since the early 1800s, economies of scale have been practised in order to try and gain greater profits through a form of multinationalism.

All such attempts to date have failed. The most successful period was between around two thousand and sixteen hundred years ago. Common language and currency prevailed across much of Europe, but it was all eventually brought to its knees by Germany. Perhaps a common theme is developing here?

If an isolated pair of islands stuck in the North Atlantic are incapable of uniting into anything less than four nominally independent kingdoms, then a vastly more disparate set of countries scattered across Europe are certainly not going to manage. The Internet and modern communications may give the illusion of a joined up, united world, but the same human differences and frailties underpin the EU and similar unions tried elsewhere. A united Europe is doomed to failure and the UK is best served by standing back while the whole sorry edifice collapses in on itself.

Even the most ardent remain supporters are now changing their tune in the realisation that the EU, far from being a path to wealth and riches, is doomed to poverty and despair by a never ending flow from poor to rich areas, dragging down standards for everyone.

Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. People don't change. That veneer of civilisation is less than skin deep if you scratch, just a little bit. I would cite Yugoslavia and the Ukraine as pretty good examples of what happens when people are pushed together and in a direction they don't particularly want to go. Civilised countries with access to pretty much all of lifes' luxuries, reduced to rubble in a matter of weeks, followed by armed conflict and targeted ethnic cleansing for years afterwards. Conflict in Northern Ireland has been simmering for 400 years or more over which church people wished to attend. What chance of a peaceful union when far greater differences lie just across the English Channel? None whatsoever.

The day when we are capable of having a United Kingdom of Great Britain incorporating England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland under a single sovereign legislature is the day when prospects for a united Europe start to become more than a distant dream.

Too much to hope for?
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 21:12
  #5362 (permalink)  
 
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Gouli

To retreat backwards cannot be a good thing. Its called the herding instinct.
The same thing which made Manchester football supporters beat up another Cities supporters and visa versa.

Countries were when transport was poor and slow and people were often confined to one area.
Even if you look at China it too is moving into the wider world that is the only way we can all communicate, mix and remove barriers between people and hence wars

This is retreating from the world
One day with faster and faster communication and transport differences will disappear and the and herding instinct will expand from the village / country to us being people of the world
Hence this has to be a backward step

It is a herding instinct maybe if there ever are people from another planet attacking us we will see ourselves as people of the world rather than Us Brits or us Brummies or us Liverpudlians etc or even us muslims or us Jews or all the other herding instinct rubbish that created so much conflict

Last edited by Pace; 9th Dec 2016 at 21:36.
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 21:23
  #5363 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post
There is an argument that as our biggest and closest market we should take workers from there rather than places who do little or no trade with us
The EU still account for 44% ( Mays figures ) of our economy
If securing that trade means favouring Europeans so be it
If 44% of our trade was with Australia then I am sure you would happily have a movement agreement with Australia if it meant keeping that trade
The EU does not account for 44% of our economy, it's more like 12 % I think
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 21:31
  #5364 (permalink)  
 
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Sarf by Theresa Mays own writing 44%
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 23:06
  #5365 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post
Sarf by Theresa Mays own writing 44%
44% and declining. Since 2008-09, the UK has increasingly exported its goods and services to outside of the EU. Additionally, a £61.5bn trade deficit with the EU (see figure 2) has developed, and shows the trade gap widening, while there is a small trade surplus with the rest of the world.

Non-EU export earnings for the insurance industry in 2013 amounted to £16.6bn vs. £3.8bn EU. Financial services industry earned £38.7bn in non-EU export earnings vs. £19.8bn from EU states (Source: Economists for Britain).
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 23:14
  #5366 (permalink)  
 
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It's 44 per cent of our exports. That's 12 per cent of our economy.
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 23:23
  #5367 (permalink)  
 
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EU negotiators will offer Brits an individual opt-in to remain EU citizens, chief negotiator confirms - The Independent
https://apple.news/A24iyp68kRay_wqhe0NQw1Q

We are turning into an unfriendly bunch
That is a nice gesture towards the 48%
We seem devoid of any niceness towards our fellow Europeans

I have to say there is a certain nastiness with brexit
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 23:37
  #5368 (permalink)  
 
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Pace: Using your argument in post #5402; would it be fair to say then that all the adjoining houses in any street should be encouraged to knock down dividing walls and everyone should feel free to move into number 99, just down the road? Just because it is there and modern communications have destroyed the boundaries anyway?
No. I don't think so either.
By the way, that opt-in on offer was for "associate citizenship". A bit like being an "associate member" of a club which to me is a sort of licenced hanger-on who pays the club dues but has no say in what goes on. Sounds like a winner, doesn't it?
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 23:48
  #5369 (permalink)  
 
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Kelvin

I don't really know what the purpose is or what the EU will get out of it ? Has anyone any idea of the cost of that membership ?
Is it something they hope we will reciprocate on ?
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 23:59
  #5370 (permalink)  
 
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I don't really know what the purpose is or what the EU will get out of it ? Has anyone any idea of the cost of that membership ?
Is it something they hope we will reciprocate on ?
Its a bit of mischief making but if duel citizenship is like the American model then you have to pay taxes to the EU as well as the UK, cant see many people going for it can you?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 00:14
  #5371 (permalink)  
 
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depends on cost and if your likely to use it ? If its 100 euro thats one thing if its 10k few takers
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 00:33
  #5372 (permalink)  
 
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I imagine the point of it is so people can retain EU benefits at a price. I mean for many this EU stuff is nothing but foreginers dicating to the UK/A waste of time/Money/Gravy Train/whatever the Daily Express is moaning about, but to many it was actually a system which they benefited from and now they face challenges retaining what they have and quite literally cannot just "get over it". I think the winning side needs to realise that lots of people will actually, geuninely lose out on this. It's not all trade deals. Peoples lives were actually moulded by the freedom to move around the EU, many families exist purely because of the ability they had to come from poorer countries and live/study/work here or vice versa. These kinds of things were not as freely available even just 20 or so years ago when much of Europe was still fairly closed off.

I for one, and I know plenty of others, would be willing to pay to retain the rights we currently have which some people feel we shouldn't. I quite like the idea of being able to leave the UK at the drop of a hat with minimal fuss and freely enter one of another 30 or so nations at my pick and be treated equally as soon as I step off the plane, should things here start to turn a bit iffy, which I feel they will as soon as we are out the door. The UK, of course, won't offer a single thing in return to EU nationals, so I expect the price to be quiet high, but in my opinion unlimited access to the EU is a price worth paying and I'd be happy to pay fairly high for it.

Afterall people pay highly to obtain documents and permits to settle in other countries around the world, for me Europe always has been attractive and I don't want my options cut off on some pathetic UKIP/Tory whim which is looking more and more likely each day. No matter how you look at it in a few years UK workers will not be attractive to European companies as we will have an extra hurdle to clear to get in the door. At least if any associate membership comes about, it gives those who want it the chance to have an equal footing. Remember those of you who loathe all things EU don't have to have it if it comes about, it won't cost you a penny to let others enjoy these benefits, so don't feel the need to try and speak out against the Idea or demand it doesn't happen. I would certainly get much more benefit out of that than being limited to just the freedom to move around the UK.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 00:40
  #5373 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by edi_local View Post
I imagine the point of it is so people can retain EU benefits at a price. I mean for many this EU stuff is nothing but foreginers dicating to the UK/A waste of time/Money/Gravy Train/whatever the Daily Express is moaning about, but to many it was actually a system which they benefited from and now they face challenges retaining what they have and quite literally cannot just "get over it". I think the winning side needs to realise that lots of people will actually, geuninely lose out on this. It's not all trade deals. Peoples lives were actually moulded by the freedom to move around the EU, many families exist purely because of the ability they had to come from poorer countries and live/study/work here or vice versa. These kinds of things were not as freely available even just 20 or so years ago when much of Europe was still fairly closed off.

I for one, and I know plenty of others, would be willing to pay to retain the rights we currently have which some people feel we shouldn't. I quite like the idea of being able to leave the UK at the drop of a hat with minimal fuss and freely enter one of another 30 or so nations at my pick and be treated equally as soon as I step off the plane, should things here start to turn a bit iffy, which I feel they will as soon as we are out the door. The UK, of course, won't offer a single thing in return to EU nationals, so I expect the price to be quiet high, but in my opinion unlimited access to the EU is a price worth paying and I'd be happy to pay fairly high for it.

Afterall people pay highly to obtain documents and permits to settle in other countries around the world, for me Europe always has been attractive and I don't want my options cut off on some pathetic UKIP/Tory whim which is looking more and more likely each day. No matter how you look at it in a few years UK workers will not be attractive to European companies as we will have an extra hurdle to clear to get in the door. At least if any associate membership comes about, it gives those who want it the chance to have an equal footing. Remember those of you who loathe all things EU don't have to have it if it comes about, it won't cost you a penny to let others enjoy these benefits, so don't feel the need to try and speak out against the Idea or demand it doesn't happen. I would certainly get much more benefit out of that than being limited to just the freedom to move around the UK.
DO YOU OWN A PASSPORT?

If so leaving the UK to enter the EU will be an absolute piece of wee wee.

More importantly once you are in the EU, you choose your entry point THERE ARE NO BORDERS TO HINDER YOU!

Project Fear has really screwed with you
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 01:01
  #5374 (permalink)  
 
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If so leaving the UK to enter the EU will be an absolute piece of wee wee.
SFFP how can you get a piece of wee wee unless its frozen wee wee ? If as a pilot I was offered work in France Belgium etc it would be useful
The airlines are going to be buggered anyway as cannot see how they are going to juggle 4 sector flights
it wont suit the EU to have an agreement with us
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 02:44
  #5375 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone who wants to retain full and free access to the EU should immediately make arrangements to move there now. You have two years to make arrangements for permanent residency, which will be a piece of cake while you have EU citizenship. Once you have that, it cannot be revoked when the UK leaves the EU, any more than a right of permanent residence in the UK can be revoked (unless you commit some really serious crimes or are a threat to state security).

Absolutely no one currently living in the UK can or will lose out when we leave the EU if they simply decide to go and live permanently in the EU now. That is the real reason why there is a two year period after Article 50 is activated, so you can sell up and get moving.

All you Europhiles, go, go now. Just don't expect to be allowed to travel freely back to the UK when the rest of us leave the EU.

Who needs telephone cleaners anyway, with apologies to Douglas Adams (r.i.p.).
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 07:08
  #5376 (permalink)  
 
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It's an empty offer, he doesn't have parliamentary approval to make it and it would require the endorsement of all 27 countries if we went for it. Anyway, there will be no pre-negotiations
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 07:10
  #5377 (permalink)  
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There you are edi_local. Not sure how they intend to collect your taxes though.

The part that appals me is that they obviously, until the last vote, were expecting to be able persuade the UK to ignore the referendum result.....

Britons will be offered chance to keep their EU citizenship | News | The Times & The Sunday Times

Plans to allow British nationals to retain their EU citizenship after Brexit are to form part of the European parliament’s negotiating position.

The “associate citizenship” status, plans for which were first revealed in The Times, would give those who adopt it the right to freedom of movement and residence throughout the EU as well as the right to vote for a representative in the European parliament. It would be made available to citizens of former member states who “feel and wish to be part of the European project”.

The proposal was put forward last month by the Luxembourg MEP Charles Goerens for inclusion in a future EU treaty. But following Wednesday’s House of Commons vote backing Theresa May’s plan to trigger withdrawal talks by the end of March, Mr Goerens agreed with the European parliament’s chief Brexit negotiator, Guy Verhofstadt, that it should be brought forward more quickly.

Mr Goerens said that Wednesday’s vote had made the prospect of Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, which triggers negotiations to leave the EU, being invoked “very real indeed”. Treaty change could therefore take too long for associate citizenship to be created before Britain left the EU.

Mr Verhofstadt told a meeting of the European parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs on Thursday that he would ensure associate citizenship status was “on the table” for the Brexit talks. “Some things cannot wait until treaty change,” Mr Verhofstadt said.........
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 07:11
  #5378 (permalink)  
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edi local....

Nice post and valid concerns.

Thereafter came the responses and, inevitably a reference to "project fear" made a mandatory appearance.

As indeed did a complete lack of understanding as to the potential ramifications for UK citizens wishing to travel to mainland Europe...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eu-visa-scheme

Also missed, in the usual myopic analysis, was the not so little matter of representation across the globe, should you require such, from the diplomatic resources of any current EU member state available in that country.

Personally, being both a UK citizen and an EU citizen ( the two are inextricably linked, unless, that is, you prefer the insularity of the UK above all else ) I have a distinct aversion to any forms of impedance to any travel I may wish to make around Europe, induced by our decision to leave.

" The day when we are capable of having a United Kingdom of Great Britain incorporating England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland under a single sovereign legislature is the day when prospects for a united Europe start to become more than a distant dream" .

Well quite !...however...you may wish to read about the history of Southern Ireland, say in the 1920's, and the events which happened around that time.

These may offer a small clue as to why the population may not be exactly over enthusiastic as to the possibility of being ruled by the Crown and Westminster... again. And frankly, you can't blame them for taking this stance.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 10th Dec 2016 at 07:25.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 07:56
  #5379 (permalink)  
 
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Being a U.K. and EU citizen is not inextricably linked as you will soon find out. I cannot think of any instance where being an EU citizen has been of any benefit when traveling the globe.
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 08:42
  #5380 (permalink)  
 
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Pure Komedy Gold, the EU intend to bring in their equivalent of the US ESTA scheme and that apparently signals the end of the world with regards to travel within the EU.

As someone who has travelled quite a bit over the last few years I seriously doubt the proposed EU 'ESTA' is going to cost much more than the actual US ESTA which currently runs at $14 for a 2 year period of validity. But if you want some examples of daft visa costs try a couple of days in Vietnam at $25 or Cambodia at $30 even a few weeks in India at $60.

The EU ESTA makes eminent sense from a security point of view and will cost peanuts in the big scheme of life and is yet another in a long list of straw clutching Project Fear bolleaux.

As regards the Brexit implications for travel in the EU again people seem to be getting their panties in a collective wad as they again submit themselves to the now easily debunked Project Fear rhetoric.

We have driven our motorhome all over the EU for the last 4 years so have a fairly good idea of what EU travel is all about.

Despite being EU citizens when we arrive at Dover to catch the ferry we have to go through passport control for entry into the EU and when we arrive at Calais on our return we have to go through passport control for entry back into the UK.

Whilst in the EU we have never yet had to show a passport at any 'border' crossing as, wait for it, their are no passport controls at any border in the whole of the EU. That privilege does not apply just to EU citizens that applies to anyone from anywhere in the world travelling in the EU and has done for years.

The crazy idea that leaving the EU is somehow going to hamper our travel plans within the EU is absolute stuff and nonsense and anyone peddling such a notion is simply delusional. We currently, as EU members have to show a passport to get in and out of the UK but once into the EU there are no borders and the idea that suddenly the EU states are going to re erect their border crossings just for UK travellers is utter tosh.

Yes, if you want to go and live or work in the EU things will change post Brexit but what is so wrong with a host nation being able to decide who gets to enjoy either of those privileges? Why should Spain, for instance not get a say in who it allows to reside within its borders? We accept that requirement for everywhere else in the world so why is it suddenly such a bloody trauma for the EU?

To quote Richard Gordon QC 'a child of 6 would understand this' and quite franky anyone not getting it needs to have a serious word with themselves.
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