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Old 15th Jan 2018, 15:36   #25221 (permalink)
 
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Just for your information he hasnít got a single thing right yet
Hello Mr Pot, Mr Kettle here!!
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 15:39   #25222 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
Sorry - how do you avoid Income Tax by spending on foreign goods and services?
Jet II, assuming there is a 20% corporation tax and a 20% income tax on dividends - for a 5 million profit my corporation tax will be 1 million and then my income tax on the remaining dividend will be 800 000. Total govt revenue is 1.8 mln.

If I abolish the corporation tax and retain just the personal income tax the govt revenue would be just 1 million. Now some will argue that does not matter since I will spend the remaining 4 million on goods and services which will give rise to VAT and further corporation tax and further income tax. But if I just take my 4 million and send it abroad it is very likely it will not come back in the form of tax revenues.

Does that make sense?
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 15:46   #25223 (permalink)
 
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Rob

The only thing brexit will achieve is this

Victory For Jeremy Corbyn As Momentum-Backed Candidates Sweep NEC Elections

Brexit and old fashioned socialism both retro you really will turn the clocks back 40 years
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 15:58   #25224 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Golf-Sierra View Post
Jet II, assuming there is a 20% corporation tax and a 20% income tax on dividends - for a 5 million profit my corporation tax will be 1 million and then my income tax on the remaining dividend will be 800 000. Total govt revenue is 1.8 mln.

If I abolish the corporation tax and retain just the personal income tax the govt revenue would be just 1 million. Now some will argue that does not matter since I will spend the remaining 4 million on goods and services which will give rise to VAT and further corporation tax and further income tax. But if I just take my 4 million and send it abroad it is very likely it will not come back in the form of tax revenues.

Does that make sense?
If the Government needs more revenue then it sets tax rates at a level to achieve that revenue. All I am saying is that as CT is simply a tax on individuals then in an ideal world you may as well just tax those individuals through the existing routes.

For example there has been much consternation over Apple using the Single Market to route all their sales through Ireland and pay CT there. If CT were scrapped and individuals taxed for revenue then any UK employees and shareholders of Apple who saw a rise in remuneration (due to the scrapping of CT) would be unable to avoid tax by using the rules of the Single Market.

I dont expect this to happen as it would take international agreement and the world seems to be going in the opposite direction at the moment.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 15:59   #25225 (permalink)
 
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Rob

The only thing brexit will achieve is this

Victory For Jeremy Corbyn As Momentum-Backed Candidates Sweep NEC Elections

Brexit and old fashioned socialism both retro you really will turn the clocks back 40 years
So you are against democracy as well - well done..
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 16:12   #25226 (permalink)
 
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Jet 11

I am all for democracy unlike you guys where democracy is a Trojan horse
With you guys it started and finished June 2016 the reason I turned so sharply against brexit
The most caustic divisive anti democracy thing to ever hit this country thewayit has been handled to suit the few not the many
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 16:31   #25227 (permalink)
 
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I am all for democracy unlike you guys where democracy is a Trojan horse
With you guys it started and finished June 2016 the reason I turned so sharply against brexit
The most caustic divisive anti democracy thing to ever hit this country thewayit has been handled to suit the few not the many
Im not aganst democracy at all, we have had a referendum and the result was leave, we then had a General Election where parties supporting leave in their manifestos calimed over 84% of the popular vote. The only party that campaigned on a remain ticket came nowhere.

Democracy says we leave the EU but it does not die then. It is your democratic right to form a political party and campaign to take us back in. what are you afraid of? If as you claim the majority of the UK want to be members of the EU then it should be simple. just be honest as to your ultimate destination and tell the UK that a vote to rejoin would mean the Euro, free movement, the ECJ and eventually an EU superstate.

That is the democratic way to be in the EU. There is nothing wrong with that stance at all.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 16:57   #25228 (permalink)
 
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Rob

This is the point the referendum to change decades in the EU was done on a first past the post as we do with an election
There is an argument to say that for such a monumental change should have required a solid majority of 55 to 60 %

But it was what it was
Next there should have been a cross party committee representing everyone to determine the flavour of brexit we went for

Instead a bunch of ideological brexiteers with too much power forced their vision of brexitand not a brexit to pull the country together

Should we go out nd find it’s a huge mistake a return will be on EU terms which would mean a very expensive mistake
Nothing was known about brexit more reason to get a democratic approval before the red button is pushed

What are you worried about ? You throw the will of the people about in arguments
Surely such a vote would just strengthen your cause with an even bigger majority ?

Truth is you fear that will like the plague

Last edited by Pace; 15th Jan 2018 at 17:21.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 17:20   #25229 (permalink)
 
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Bears repeating.
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Whenever they imagine life outside the European Union, Brexiters often speak dreamily about the Most Favoured Nation rule. It sounds privileged and gold-plated, like an executive lounge at the airport. In reality, it is nothing of the sort.

This is what it really means and why it makes Brexit such a dangerous endeavour.

Most Favoured Nation is a World Trade Organisation rule that says that you cannot discriminate in your tariff arrangements outside of a free trade agreement. If you want to have tariffs of ten per cent for oranges from Brazil, say, then you have to have them at the same level for the United States. Essentially, it bans favouritism. It should really be called No Most Favoured Nation.

The only way out of the straightjacket is to sign a formal free trade agreement, either with another country or a group of other countries. The European Economic Area (EEA) agreement, which the UK is currently a signatory to, is one such agreement. The EU also has (more traditional) agreements with other states, like Canada and South Korea, and will probably have one soon with Japan.

Once two partners have got a free trade agreement they can adopt whatever tariffs towards each other they like, or even eliminate them altogether. And they can do that without having to replicate them for everyone else. Itís like creating a firewall around your trading arrangement.

Some trade deals also have a Most Favoured Nation clause in them. This is another anti-discrimination initiative. It promises your partner that if you sign another trade deal with someone else on better terms, this one will be upgraded to meet it. Itís the bilateral trade equivalent of John Lewisí price promise.

Far from being an executive lounge advantage for Brexiters, Most Favoured Nation is actually a massive problem for them. For a start, if the EU offers a deal to the UK which is better than that agreed with South Korea and Canada, it has to find a way out of its Most Favoured Nation clause with those countries. That is a problem which lawyers are going to make lots of money out of. It could even, in a worst case scenario, discourage the EU from offering the UK a better deal at all.

But the bigger issue comes if there is no deal. Our tariffs with Europe are currently zero on everything, because weíre in the same customs union. Brexiters insist that even if we fail to get a deal with Brussels, we can unilaterally decide to keep our tariffs where they are and demand that they do the same. But Most Favoured Nation means that the repercussions of this would be very severe, as we would have to eradicate all our tariffs for every other country on earth, from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe.

Insane as it sounds, some Brexiters like the sound of this. Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP whose think tank has been warmly welcomed into Whitehall by Boris Johnson and Liam Fox, is a leading proponent of the idea. This type of Brexiter typically believes in unilateral tariff reduction as a kind of Viagra Capitalism, unleashing a potent new Britain onto the world stage.

The reality would be rather different. The first thing that would happen is that British agriculture would be devastated. Cheap food would flood in from around the world, leaving domestic producers unable to compete. Some of them might be able to carve out a niche in the upper end of the market by focusing on quality. Others would diversify. But most would struggle to make it, especially after European subsidies dry up and tariff walls went up against their exports. Similar things would happen, to a lesser but very meaningful extent, in manufacturing.

Some free marketeers say that this is all part of the regrettable but necessary process of capitalist renewal. The truth is these producers arenít globally competitive. Those farmers will just have to retrain as digital consultants or something. The consumer, meanwhile, will be getting a cheaper product.

The reality is far more complicated. Countries like Brazil and Thailand heavily subsidise much of their agriculture. They subsidise sugar, for instance. If they start dumping it in the UK, there is no way for domestically-produced British Sugar to compete. But thatís not the free market. Itís the British governmentís failure to protect its domestic industries from the effects of foreign government subsidies.

British producers would be up against the wall. While cheap foreign goods flooded the market, they would be unable to export their own produce, because no reciprocal tariff reduction would have been secured. Everyone elseís barriers would still be up. Weíd be the only ones smashing ours to pieces.

This is the remorseless logic of Most Favoured Nation. It is the chief reason why a deal with Europe is of paramount importance. If it is not secured, Britain faces either closing itself off from its largest market, or opening itself up to everyone else. Neither option is particularly attractive.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 17:32   #25230 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post
Jet 11

I am all for democracy unlike you guys where democracy is a Trojan horse
With you guys it started and finished June 2016 the reason I turned so sharply against brexit
The most caustic divisive anti democracy thing to ever hit this country thewayit has been handled to suit the few not the many
Could one repeat that in the mother tongue.



There ya go. Momentumitis at its finest.

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Old 15th Jan 2018, 18:21   #25231 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post
Rob

The only thing brexit will achieve is this

Victory For Jeremy Corbyn As Momentum-Backed Candidates Sweep NEC Elections

Brexit and old fashioned socialism both retro you really will turn the clocks back 40 years
I can't wait for Corbyn, this country deserves him so badly.

Right as we're exiting the EU, a good dose of socialism will once again kill it for a generation

This horrendous movement of cultural marxists, modern day book burners and anti-free speech/expression loonies need to be in charge for a while so that we can really hate them on a mass scale with tremendous passion

Let 'em have a go so that we can lance the boil once and for all
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 19:29   #25232 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post
Jet 11

I am all for democracy unlike you guys where democracy is a Trojan horse
With you guys it started and finished June 2016 the reason I turned so sharply against brexit
The most caustic divisive anti democracy thing to ever hit this country thewayit has been handled to suit the few not the many
How can you be in favor of Democracy when you want to ignore the largest expression of democratic will since WW2 simply to prevent a Labour Government taking power should they, democratically, win the next General Election.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 19:32   #25233 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ExXB View Post
Bears repeating.
Para 7 is wrong
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 19:56   #25234 (permalink)
 
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[URL="http://EU to lose £500bn and UK to gain £640bn in no-deal Brexit, economist claims"]

From the Telegraph this evening. I am sure we can all find news articles to promote whichever pov you hold.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 20:08   #25235 (permalink)
 
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How can you be in favor of Democracy when you want to ignore the largest expression of democratic will since WW2 simply to prevent a Labour Government taking power should they, democratically, win the next General Election.
Jet 11

Thatís the problem it wasnít ! It was a slender win one which Farage would not have considered a mandate
The way the Government have run with it is as if they had a 70% for Leave
Instead it was a prize that the ideological retro brexiteers interpretated to cut and run from
The EU markets in a way that treated Europe as a third country
FOM ? May did no research on the subject of EU immigration and that research wonít be complete until September 2018

Yet itís her red line over and above the economy! That is nuts

How has May tried to heal and pull this country together with the slimmest of mandates ?
She hasnít she has pandered to the ideological retro brexiteers and ignored everyone else
She has tried to silence Parliament on her quest for a hard brexit
God knows where we would be if she had that 100 plus majority ?

The most undemocratic GRB would have been pushed through totally eliminating
Parliament

Democracy a big word but purely a Trojan horse as far as May and her cronies are concerned
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 20:09   #25236 (permalink)
 
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Nice to see this thread has broken through the 2 million mark ))
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 20:33   #25237 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Peter-RB View Post
Now the VOTES ARE ALL COUNTED..and being a Democratic Country
My personal opinion is that Great Britain joined a Common Market, for which some people voted for and others against..but we joined, we can all throw problems that arose but basically it served a purpose and allowed the Common Market to get stronger... along the way some things improved others didn't but we all carried on....
However many people started to see EU decisions happening but also realised if they were not liked..well then you needed/had to put up with it, various Prime Ministers led us deeper and deeper into what became the European Union to the point where the last PM was so peeed of at the carpers, he rashly promised a referendum on " IN or OUT" of the EU, IMO the right answer came forth from that referendum.

But we now find a sort of Limbo Land where the powers that be, have had to admit they were not expecting the common herd to vote OUT..in fact it came as such a shock the then PM and his Cabel of school chums who ran the GB Ltd didn't have a clue what to do, so like all beaten schoolboys they ran orf in all different directions, leaving the new arrangement to the "new people" who stepped in willingly or not to sort out the matters of State that seemed to be rudderless, and indeed we have some new to the Diplomatic core, men and women who seem to be unable to grasp the nettle as to what needs to be done..! in fact it still seem to me that the unelected heads of the EU are actually trying to "Bully the UK into some quick agreement" so they can carry on with the EU business without much worry about other states copying the example of "people power" over non elected heads of the EU... !

Shouldn't the UK start by saying/asking how much trade do the EU states want to do with us(the UK)... take for example Mercedes Benz, BMW,VW, Scania, they supply billions of Euro/£ sterling per month into the UK, using that as a starting point, then look at Beer and Alcohol product and food product, steel/Aluminium, Glass,Paper, wood, clothes, Food, Luxury Goods. it seems, if that market( the UK) was lost to the EU it would be them who would be looking down the barrel of a gun, for those markets mentioned if lost to the EU would bust some of the companies thus involved.......

Or is it not that simple...?
PACE, here is who started it, so it must be a big well done to PETER-RB.

What about a poll on BREXIT YES/NO.

It would be interesting to see if we get to your 40:60. I wonder if we would be allowed to conduct one under the forum rules.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 21:21   #25238 (permalink)
 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...er-rudd-brexit

Another Government deception timed to be released too late when it won’t show how stupid and ideological are Mays red lines and policies on brexit

Like the brexit impact studies
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 22:57   #25239 (permalink)
 
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Thatís the problem it wasnít ! It was a slender win one which Farage would not have considered a mandate
The way the Government have run with it is as if they had a 70% for Leave
Instead it was a prize that the ideological retro brexiteers interpretated to cut and run from
The EU markets in a way that treated Europe as a third country
FOM ? May did no research on the subject of EU immigration and that research wonít be complete until September 2018

Yet itís her red line over and above the economy! That is nuts

How has May tried to heal and pull this country together with the slimmest of mandates ?
She hasnít she has pandered to the ideological retro brexiteers and ignored everyone else
She has tried to silence Parliament on her quest for a hard brexit
God knows where we would be if she had that 100 plus majority ?

The most undemocratic GRB would have been pushed through totally eliminating
Parliament

Democracy a big word but purely a Trojan horse as far as May and her cronies are concerned
And I will repeat again there was a vote in Parliament to give people the referendum. The referendum had the largest turnout in over 20 years with 72.2%. The outcome was a simple majority as it should be and leave won. The sitting PM promised to enact the vote and there would be no second referendum, just in case you forgot here it is again


and again in the Commons


Listen very carefully, your then Prime Minister promised to enact the result not only in interviews but in the House of Commons as well, it could not have been stated more clearly.

Now if that promise made in the Commons is overturned just because some people did not like the result then democracy in this country is DEAD.

A true democrat would have the courage of their convictions, if they wanted to be a member of the EU they would campaign to take us back in ONCE WE HAVE LEFT. Its quite simple and should be easy if what you remainers say is true, the UK voters will understand their mistake and vote by a huge margin to rejoin. Ah you say but we would have to accept the Euro and all the other things! so thats coming if we stay in anyway, we were told we wouldnt be giving up any sovereignty and we were only joining a free trade area. That was a blatant lie. Ask yourself why did they lie? if the EU is such a fantastic place then why would you decieve your own people to take you in.

Thats what you and the remain side are trying to do now, you are promising that we can remain on the same terms as before, that there will be no further integration, that we wont have to accept Schengen and the Euro further down the road, that we can keep our rebate, that we will not have to accept EU banking regulations, that there is no plan for a United States of Europe, that there is no plans to form a EU military force (why does a trading bloc need an army?)

In short you are trying to subvert democracy and keep the UK in the EU on a lie. At least have the courage of your convictions, tell the truth about the implications of remaining and act like a democrat.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 23:23   #25240 (permalink)
 
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The referendum was about nothing more than protecting the integrity of the Conservative party. (How ironic is that now?) The Conservatives were increasingly losing support to UKIP, specifically it's charismatic flim-flam man. Yes it's true to say CMD made pathetically weak demands with his attempt at "renegotiation" and the EU had the guts to say "jog on". You can't blame them for that! The red line of immigration? Don't make me laugh, What about non EU immigration? Treeza could have clamped down on that years ago and could do again. Why not I wonder? In fact when I lived in north west London in the 90's many streets were already majority occupied by asians. This was the result of immigration during the Thatcher era, but all the Tory lovers conveniently like to forget about that. P.S on the subject of UKIP and the latest "scandal" I reckon their best bet is to make her the leader!
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