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Venezuela - Basket Case of S.America.

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Venezuela - Basket Case of S.America.

Old 22nd May 2018, 01:10
  #101 (permalink)  
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There'll be a momentous party going on in Britain too.
One wonders whether, if Corbyn gets elected, the vast majority of that enormous British foreign aid budget will get sidetracked to Maduro, in part as justification for supporting his regime and ostensibly for Venezuelan oil to relieve the petrol prices back in Blighty, thereby enabling two socialist states to slide into bankruptcy together.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 03:58
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
Switching tack, I see Vladimir Putin has endorsed Maduro's 're-election'.
Destabilizing Venezuela is in Putin's best interest, because it increases the price of oil by reducing production. So I'm not surprised he's happy.

I do wonder how much he's paying Trudeau to destroy Canadian oil production, though.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:28
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Didn't Livingston do a dodgy oil deal with them when he was mayor of London?
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:35
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Didn't Livingston do a dodgy oil deal with them when he was mayor of London?
Livingstone blamed Venezuelas problems on Chavez's failure to kill the oligarchs when he came to power.

There you are, if socialism is to flourish, the bodies need to pile up.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 02:57
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Andy and td for the points on Venezuelan crude. But it's the higher level decisions that killed the cash cow. (Tragic, since if properly managed, it could have provided some hard currency to an unstable economy .... arrgh, what might have been ...)
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 07:02
  #106 (permalink)  
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The Times: ‘Crazy’ policies force Maduro to import oil

Venezuela is seeking to import crude oil to supply its refineries in a policy described as “crazy” for a nation with more proven reserves than any other.

The decision to import and then give much of the finished product away follows a dive in productivity at the state-run oil company PDVSA, which pumps less oil than it did in the early 1950s. Experts blame the crisis on years of mismanagement, theft, corruption and political meddling by Venezuela’s successive socialist governments.

Petrol, meanwhile, is cheaper than water in Venezuela. Strict price controls and a collapse in the value of the local currency mean that £1 is enough to fill the tanks of 10,000 cars.

According to documents seen by Reuters, PDVSA is looking to purchase about 60,000 barrels of crude a day. Some of the oil would then be exported to fulfil contracts in Russia and China. The rest would go to domestic consumers. A significant portion of the petrol sold in Venezuela is smuggled abroad.

Francisco Monaldi, fellow in Latin American energy policy at Rice University in Texas, told The Times. “It’s crazy to import oil to the collapsing refinery system to try to fulfil some contracts and the domestic market. [It] will only end in worsening the death spiral of the Venezuelan oil industry.”........
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 17:52
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Petrol, meanwhile, is cheaper than water in Venezuela. Strict price controls and a collapse in the value of the local currency mean that £1 is enough to fill the tanks of 10,000 cars.
Marvel at the economic success of Socialism, Comrades! Petrol cheaper than water! Let's see one Capitalist nation which can achieve such a miracle!
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 22:57
  #108 (permalink)  
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There are plenty of people in Venezuela who have a splendid life style and by no means all of these are friends of Nicolás Maduro.
While the recent election was played out at home, many rather wealthy Venezuelans left the country temporarily or sent their younger family members away for the duration.
Some of these traveled on private charter aircraft, so off shore funding was not a problem for the charters concerned. What some temporary exiles did do though was to fill their inbound charter aircraft to the gunwhales with basic foodstuffs, not just for their own use on return but for those far less fortunate than themselves.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 07:47
  #109 (permalink)  
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That's the ticket. That'll fix everything.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 19:13
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Venezuela is little better or worse than the whole selection of oddballs that make up that continent, with the notable exceptions (in my opinion) of Argentina and (without any doubt) Uruguay, they may be in S.America but they are in a completely different league than their fellow continent members. Far closer to European in make up.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 21:25
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
Venezuela is little better or worse than the whole selection of oddballs that make up that continent.
Flash, before Chavez came to power, Venezuela was something of a shining light in the area - economically strong with a rapidly growing middle class. While this growing economic prosperity was mainly fueled by crude oil, it really is true that a rising economic tide raises all boats - so while economic inequality was an issue, the poor had a chance to improve.
Chavez 'fixed' that, nationalized the oil companies and used some of the profits to provide a massive social welfare system to poor which of course made him massively popular with the poor. However he and his cronies were far to busy looting the oil companies to pay the welfare bill (and line their own pockets to a frightening degree) and didn't tend to the continuing needs of the oil infrastructure and over the last ten years the oil production has dropped massively - leaving no money to fund the social welfare or finance the necessary repairs and updates to the oil infrastructure. So after 15 years of socialism, a once vibrant and growing economy is now a basket case, the middle class has all but disappeared and the poor are worse off then ever, and income inequality is massive.
It's often been said that capitalism is a horrible economic system, that only looks good when compared to any other system that's ever been tried.
Meanwhile socialism is said to be a great economic system that for some strange reason no one has ever been able to make work...
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 21:44
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Yeh it's a mess, though less to do with the system than the person running it. Rather a lot of people were killed for the god of capitalism in Argentina and Chile. Capitalism has in its time also caused complete misery in countries.

Pure socialism doesn't work. Nor does unfettered capitalism, which has delivered to parts of the USA life expectancy almost as high as Rwanda.

If you don't even realise how the propaganda machine uses socialism as the daily hate to make you blind to how your own system looks after the few at your own expense, you're perhaps not as smart as you think.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 21:48
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It's often been said that capitalism is a horrible economic system, that only looks good when compared to any other system that's ever been tried.
Meanwhile socialism is said to be a great economic system that for some strange reason no one has ever been able to make work...
It's a good statement TD, probably quite true, always however thought thought the end game in capitalism would be everything owned by one person/organisation. Oddly enough during the 1970's as a kid used to read futuristic comics and they predicted a future consisting of a few "Mega Corps", very prescient, one day we will have Amazon covering the entirety of the shopping experience with zero competition. To me the biggest scandal is the lack of political will to break up these huge Internet enterprises that have destroyed ALL competition, this is worldwide, not just the US/UK, this is not going to lead to anything good.

Anyway sorry about that tangent.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 23:14
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Livingstone blamed Venezuelas problems on Chavez's failure to kill the oligarchs when he came to power.

There you are, if socialism is to flourish, the bodies need to pile up.
People here quoting Corbyn's support for Maduro, which yes is lamentable, may care to read just a little bit of history and look at Mrs. Thatchers description of Pinochet as a friend, and the American support for the installation of the military regimes in Chile and Argentina. The existing regimes hadn't even done anything wrong except not bend over to American corporations. Which apparently is enough reason to depose the government and kill opponents of the dictatorship.

You might be surprised to learn the world is not as Black and white as you thought. This isn't star wars.

I say this as someone with a number of friends from Venezuela, including an ex girlfriend. All have had to leave their homes and families because of the scum running the country. It is a human tragedy and rather sad to see people seemingly rejoicing in it so they can make some childish point about socialism.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 02:35
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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All have had to leave their homes and families because of the scum running the country.
Funny how that seems to be a chronic problem with Socialist economies.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 11:02
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neila83 View Post
It is a human tragedy and rather sad to see people seemingly rejoicing in it so they can make some childish point about socialism.
The massive, government facilitated exercise in forced confiscation and re-distribution of wealth has utterly wrecked the economy of what was the wealthiest nation in Latin America. The Venezuelan experiment in unbridled socialism has been a catastrophic failure.

Why is it "childish" to point that out? Or that there are politicians and opinion formers including in the UK who thoroughly approve of Chavez / Maduro's methods?
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 12:22
  #117 (permalink)  
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It is a human tragedy
But not a tragedy like a plague, tsunami, volcanic explosion and the like.
More accurately it is, "a tragedy caused by humans". and therefore fixable once you remove the particular idiot humans responsible for the debacle.
Not fixable if those who are able to, run away.
Any politicians and high faluting "opinion makers" who think this bears any resemblance to any kind of successful method should never be let near parliaments.
It's fake tragedy.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 12:37
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Funny how that seems to be a chronic problem with Socialist economies.
Socialism, communism, are merely ways to control a society, and for the ruling elite to get rich by stealing their “subject’s” money. In both cases, the ruling elite still have their huge palaces, private jets, champagne lifestyle etc. while the so-called proletariat live relatively miserable impoverished lives.

A read of George Orwell’s book “Animal Farm” tells you all you need to know.

It would be nice to think that one day, some sort of legislation could be invented and adopted that would prevent such massive corruption from happening, (or to make it very obvious to the world and the voters, who would then vote them out). The United Kingdom’s Parliament system was brought in to prevent the ruling Monarch abusing their subjects in this way. It sort of works, but there is still corruption there and we need the next step now.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 12:54
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neila83 View Post
Yeh it's a mess, though less to do with the system than the person running it. Rather a lot of people were killed for the god of capitalism in Argentina and Chile. Capitalism has in its time also caused complete misery in countries.

Pure socialism doesn't work. Nor does unfettered capitalism, which has delivered to parts of the USA life expectancy almost as high as Rwanda.

If you don't even realise how the propaganda machine uses socialism as the daily hate to make you blind to how your own system looks after the few at your own expense, you're perhaps not as smart as you think.
Whataboutery at its finest. That was 30 years ago. The world has changed. This is now and that's a very big difference. This is the next 'government in waiting' and today is a different world.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 15:05
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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I think this article from the Adam Smith Institute is quite apt for this thread.

The document that changed the world

Dr. Madsen Pirie

Forty years ago, in 1978, 18 farmers from the village of Xiaogang in China, met at night in secret. They had seen subsistence and famine. Exhausted and emaciated, they lacked the energy to work the collective fields as Party discipline required. A few years earlier they had seen 67 of their 120 population starve to death in the "Great Leap Forward" Now they took matters into their own hands. By flickering lights (none had seen electricity), they came forward in turn to sign a document dividing up the collective farm into individual family plots, whose owners could keep most of the proceeds of their labours.

They knew the dangers, and added a clause to the contract pledging that if any were betrayed and executed, the others would raise their children until aged 18. Following that historic contract, the village produced more food next harvest than it had in the previous 5 years combined. Surrounding villages spotted what happened, and the farmers of Xiaogang were exposed.

Had Mao-Zedong been in power, they would undoubtedly have been exposed and executed for betraying the principles and cornerstone of Socialism. But Mao had died, and Deng Xiaoping, the great pragmatist, was consolidating his power. He held off punishment until their illegal experiment had been studied, and pledged to adopt their innovation across China. Famously Deng had said, “It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white; as long as it catches mice, it's a goodcat.” Xiaogang's practices were good; they caught mice.

China leapt from being a net importer of food into being a net exporter, and the Chinese economic miracle was launched. Its growth rates since have ranged between 7% and 10%. India and other nations followed suit, and the neoliberal hegemony began. Living standards doubled. Life expectancy doubled. Deaths from disease and malnutrition went down to a tiny fraction of what they had been, as did deaths in childbirth and infancy. It has constituted the greatest economic advance the world has ever seen, and the greatest improvement in history in the living standards and life chances for ordinary people.

It began with a piece of parchment secretly signed by trembling hands in the flickering light of 40 years ago, but it has reverberated around the world. Those 18 brave souls who defied authority to try a new way of doing things were the pioneers of a revolution that has transformed the prospects for humankind. We salute them today.
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