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Tesla and Lithium

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Tesla and Lithium

Old 1st Apr 2018, 09:02
  #1001 (permalink)  
 
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M. Mouse. Do you live at 3 Oak Cottages? I ask because when I looked at your map there was a flashing marker which indicated that address.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 09:20
  #1002 (permalink)  
 
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The Nissan induction idea sounds good in principle, but it is going to be a huge project to bury loops and power connections in every suburban street.

The lamp post scheme must be a non starter except in a few special cases. In most suburban streets the lights are spaced too far apart and often on only one side of the road. How will they serve a full population of EVs? From previous experience of living in such a road it is often difficult to even find a parking space. I can imagine the disputes arising when the charging point under a lamp post is occupied overnight. And then there is the temptation for vandalism.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 09:59
  #1003 (permalink)  

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M. Mouse. Do you live at 3 Oak Cottages?
Nowhere near! I just looked at the link and I don't see a flashing marker so am not sure what is happening in your case.

Someone asked if hotels charge for use of their EV charging points. Generally no.

A destination charger is often rated at 7KwH. It, therefore, costs 7 x the price per unit of electricity for every hour of charge. The cost per charge in the overall scheme of a commercial premises electricity bill is minimal. EV owners will select a hotel with charging facilities over one without so there is a small marketing incentive to provide one or two.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 10:40
  #1004 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
The Nissan induction idea sounds good in principle, but it is going to be a huge project to bury loops and power connections in every suburban street.

The lamp post scheme must be a non starter except in a few special cases. In most suburban streets the lights are spaced too far apart and often on only one side of the road. How will they serve a full population of EVs? From previous experience of living in such a road it is often difficult to even find a parking space. I can imagine the disputes arising when the charging point under a lamp post is occupied overnight. And then there is the temptation for vandalism.

It was a huge project to put filling stations at very regular intervals across the whole country when cars became popular too, and to provide the bulk storage and tanker infrastructure to distribute fuel to them.

For the first 20 or 30 years of motor cars being around, many had to rely on buying fuel in cans, and storing fuel in cans at home, as there just wasn't a big network of filling stations to use.

We're still in the very early days of EVs, and I would guess that it will take at least another 10 or 20 years before the infrastructure is in place to allow charging pretty much everywhere.

Urban infrastructure can go in quickly if there is sufficient drive to do it, though. Look how quickly cable TV was laid out across big cities and towns, even though that meant digging holes everywhere for a couple of years. Putting in roadside charging points would be little more work, and the existing units seem pretty vandal proof (although I'm sure a few get damaged every year, just like every other bit of street furniture).
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 11:01
  #1005 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Urban infrastructure can go in quickly if there is sufficient drive to do it, though. Look how quickly cable TV was laid out across big cities and towns, even though that meant digging holes everywhere for a couple of years. Putting in roadside charging points would be little more work, and the existing units seem pretty vandal proof (although I'm sure a few get damaged every year, just like every other bit of street furniture).
I do take your point, but cable TV only requires passive co-ax laid in the paths. A small amount of AC is only needed for the distribution box at the end of the street.

Putting in a connection point to supply 7A or more, every 5m along both sides of the street is going to need major new distribution networks. You will of course point out that much of this demand will be off-peak, but the network must still be able to support it.

Doubtless this will all happen in time, but it's going to be a huge project.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 11:14
  #1006 (permalink)  
 
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China doesn't seem to be afraid of it.

[URL="https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/china-ev-charging-station-and-charging-pile-market-report-2017-2020-300428154.html"]https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/china-ev-charging-station-and-charging-pile-market-report-2017-2020-300428154.html[/URL

China aims to build 12,000 centralized charging/battery swap stations and 4.8 million scattered charging piles across the country by 2020
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 11:23
  #1007 (permalink)  
 
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Most of the infrastructure cost will probably be in digging up the roads/pavements. The costs of doing this seems astronomical compared to the cost of cable etc. I had to dig two trenches across two single track lanes, one for a drainage pipe, the other for a power cable for a house. The cost of digging these two 3 to 4m long trenches, and backfilling and resurfacing them to the local authority standard, together with the significant fee payable to the local authority for the licence to do this work, massively exceeded the cost of the pipe or cable in them.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 12:11
  #1008 (permalink)  
 
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News report says log data has been analysed and an alert had gone off 6 seconds before the impact for the driver to put his hands on the steering wheel, there is no log of the driver putting his hands on the steering wheel. Report also states that the victim reported to Tesla 7-10 times that his vehicle had a tendency to swerve into that barrier, Tesla could not find find any issue with the vehicle and other Teslas of the same bit of road were not experiencing any concerns navigating it. The barrier had been repaired in a very different way after a crash into it about a week before by an ordinary car.

Personally, I'm happy to leave my hands on the steering as others more brave than I sort out the bugs with trusting a computer.

Around 30% of the Uk's housing stock has no off street parking at all.
I guess when nobody is looking they could attach their EVs to the overhead power lines overnight.

Last edited by cattletruck; 1st Apr 2018 at 12:38. Reason: Added off street charging solution.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 13:36
  #1009 (permalink)  
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I have just spoken to a driver of a BMW i8 filling up with petrol in the village.
I asked him where he 'charged' and he revealed that he was a trader (from Ireland) who had just picked up the car - with zero charge and petrol on empty, so he was filling up before he drove to the west coast ferry at Cairnryan.
He said that it now showed ten miles of electric charge (from running the petrol engine).
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 13:45
  #1010 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Most of the infrastructure cost will probably be in digging up the roads/pavements. The costs of doing this seems astronomical compared to the cost of cable etc.
And that is one of the reasons why I am not too concern about on-street parking charging infrastructure. There is already a distribution grid that is available on both sides of the roads (you need to power the houses on both sides). Even if you need more capacity (which I do not think necessary, there is no requirement for those charging points to be rapid chargers), there is probably a conduit available for you to run another cable through.

This is unlike the cable-TV situation where you have to lay a separate new conduit (can they go in the phone/telecoms conduits, they certainly cannot go in the power ones).
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 13:51
  #1011 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post

Putting in a connection point to supply 7A or more, every 5m along both sides of the street is going to need major new distribution networks. You will of course point out that much of this demand will be off-peak, but the network must still be able to support it.
But will it be off-peak?. Peak demand in the UK is at around 18:00, which is exactly the time that a lot of people arrive home after work and will plug their cars in. You could put timers in so that cars didn't start charging until later but that could be a bit of a bummer if you wanted to go down the pub at 20:00.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 14:13
  #1012 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Highway1 View Post
But will it be off-peak?. Peak demand in the UK is at around 18:00, which is exactly the time that a lot of people arrive home after work and will plug their cars in. You could put timers in so that cars didn't start charging until later but that could be a bit of a bummer if you wanted to go down the pub at 20:00.
Some EVs have charge timers built in - mine does. I can set it to charge at whatever time I want. Also, you don't have to fully charge at one go, you can partially charge any time you want.

Some charge points have a timing facility, one of mine does, it only switches on when the solar panels are exporting significantly more than the house is using during the day.

Finally, if you only use, say, 30 or 40% of your total range during your daily commute, then you will still have a fair bit spare for an evening trip out before a timed roadside charger comes on, and if your local also puts in charge points, then you can charge there anyway.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 14:28
  #1013 (permalink)  
 
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This all sounds as though it is getting way to complicated - I think I'll wait until we get nuclear fusion cars.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 01:26
  #1014 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yotty View Post
https://speakev.com/forums/bmw-i3/ Looks like it's best to keep the car in warranty!
Ironically the issue spoken about in the thread that spoke of warranty https://speakev.com/threads/for-the-...rranty.101153/ is due to its range extender, ie the IC part of the vehicle. If the vehicle was pure battery EV, that issue would not have arisen!
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 07:39
  #1015 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cee cee View Post
Ironically the issue spoken about in the thread that spoke of warranty https://speakev.com/threads/for-the-...rranty.101153/ is due to its range extender, ie the IC part of the vehicle. If the vehicle was pure battery EV, that issue would not have arisen!
Yes, it looks like BMW have serious problems with that range extender engine and generator, going by the number of warranty claims. Even getting an extended warranty for an i3 fitted with a range extender engine/generator is so expensive as to make it of dubious value.

It's a pity, as the i3 with the range extender seemed a pretty good compromise, but it's off my list now. I'll almost certainly stick with another Prius PHV for the next car, especially as they've now homologated it to allow the legal use of a tow bar, which means I can tow my boat trailer with it.
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Old 3rd Apr 2018, 00:33
  #1016 (permalink)  
 
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Car and Driver finally got a hold of a Model 3 to test - although they had to borrow it from a customer - Tesla still hasn't managed to provide them with one to test:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ws&date=040218

C&D summary:
Highs
Satisfying handling, impressive tech integration, looks and feels like the future.

Lows
Not the price we were promised, not the range we were hoping for, the questionable build quality we’ve learned to expect.
I think Tesla had better get a handle on their build quality pronto - if questionable build quality continues much longer they're going to lose the market to the main stream manufacturers...
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Old 3rd Apr 2018, 19:18
  #1017 (permalink)  
 
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Not going to happen

Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
Car manufacturer seems to being going great guns. Almost 300,000 of the new model pre-ordered for delivery in 2017 sometime.
Plant under construction for batteries will have the largest footprint of any building on earth (A Boeing building is still largest overall in volume and the Pentagon is still the largest office building on earth).


But I read that they plan to take all the world's production of lithium for their batteries (?). Could be a tricky trick that.


Leading producers - Bolivia, Chile and Argentina.
Estimated reserves from 13m Tonnes to 39m Tonnes.
Enough to produce minimum of 1b 40kWh Lithium batteries with minimum reserves.
Enough to fill global demand until 2100.
Growth in demand currently 12% a year.
That exceeds production availability by 25%


Haven't dug into this very deeply but the numbers don't seem right so far, especially the bit about Tesla taking all the output..
Tesla has a few hurdles to surmount, but no, they will not get their hands on all the Luthium.Any company to date trying to monopolize supply and production like this run into huge legal issues and as you already stated, quantity demanded is not that high in the first place.
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 14:35
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Sweden has 'solved' the recharging issue by installing Scalextric track in their roads so that the car is constantly charged when it drives along..

Ingeneous solution but I do wonder about the cost and the ongoing reliability - what happens when it snows?

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...pens-in-sweden
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 17:32
  #1019 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Highway1 View Post
Sweden has 'solved' the recharging issue by installing Scalextric track in their roads so that the car is constantly charged when it drives along..

Ingeneous solution but I do wonder about the cost and the ongoing reliability - what happens when it snows?

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...pens-in-sweden
Roads? 1.2 miles of one road.
When it snows, stuff gets white and slippery.
Per
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 00:44
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Having debated the issues, I have decided to get a second-hand Jaguar X-type SE petrol/gasoline-driven estate wagon with 2.1 L engine.


The reasons.
1. Petrol/Gasoline stations are still here for a while yet.
2. Electric charging points are not yet ubiquitous, and battery life affects second-hand prices.
3. The X-type has leather seats for which an animal gave its hide. Rather than allowing the car to be scrapped, a longer life gives more respect to said bovine creature.
4. I have always secretly wanted a comfortable Jaguar, the older the better, and my life is nearing its useful end. Cue Inspector Morse and MkII, XK 120, XK-150 , D-Type, E-Type, etc. (Would have liked an Aston Martin, though.)
5. These X-types are cheap now, and relatively economical. (Within the remit.)
6. I found a one-owner non-smoker of reasonable mileage, with plenty of options that were originally expensive to order, such as a fold-down rear armrest.
7. The V-six engine will be smooth to drive.
8. The estate version has higher back headroom and plenty of luggage space, and the car gets good write-ups even as second-hand. I carry a lot of clobber around.
9. I can go cutting-edge technology with the wife's car if necessary.
10. Not to drive in the UK.
11. The wife can drive it too, and even if she bumps or scrapes it, no-one will worry too much.
12. Diesel is not the flavour of the month.


Against.
1. The wife erupted like Mt. Fuji when I casually mentioned it.
2. No silver Jaguar on the bonnet.
3. Real Jaguar enthusiasts will pooh-pooh it.
4. We do not really need another car.


So to Tesla and Lithium, "I am your biggest fan, but no thanks, not at this time".
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