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The EU - in or out? This is the hamsterwheel.

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The EU - in or out? This is the hamsterwheel.

Old 21st Dec 2015, 13:47
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The EU - in or out? This is the hamsterwheel.

The EU:

Greatest achievement - 70 years of peace in Europe and freedom of movement. Both worth their weight in solid gold to the UK and not to be trifled with at any cost.

Greatest problem - top-heavy centralised bureaucracy, which must be streamlined, its finances sorted out and accounts properly signed off. All do-able.

Summary - it would be very foolish for the UK to leave the EU so, unless persuaded otherwise by rational argument, I vote to stay in. Your views?
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 14:03
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I hate loath and despise that filthy organisation I want to see it crushed and all those squatting with snouts in trough in that hideous building in Brussels dragged out and strung up from lamp posts the building reduced to ashes and pissed upon.
Yer I think we should stay in.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 14:06
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The Greatest Lie about the EU (that is repeated far too often without being challenged):
Greatest achievement - 70 years of peace in Europe and freedom of movement. Both worth their weight in solid gold to the UK and not to be trifled with at any cost.
Peace in Europe has been simply down to democracy. Europe would have had the same 70 years of peace even if the EU had never existed (and the EU did not exist for most of those 70 years).

Freedom of movement hasn't helped peace in at least one major EU country's capital recently.

The failure of the EU to have proper democracy and accountability (when were their accounts last properly audited?) at the core of their institutions is the biggest threat to peace...

Last edited by Trossie; 21st Dec 2015 at 14:07. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 14:11
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
The Greatest Lie about the EU (that is repeated far too often without being challenged):Peace in Europe has been simply down to democracy.
Peace in Europe has been down to hundreds of thousands of US troops with nuclear weapons, and an existential threat from the Soviet Union which kept European countries from fighting each other for a while. It has nothing to do with democracy.

The EU has set the stage for a Europe-wide civil war.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 14:17
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Out!

The UK joined a "Common Market", not the "United States of Europe", which is what the EU seems to want to become.

Once the UK pulls out, the EU will come tumbling down like a house of cards.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 14:28
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Definitely OUT.

The EU is a ludicrous, corrupt and overly bureaucratic organisation that imposes ill-thought through "regulations" that we turn into ever-dafter laws.

I have absolutely no problem with the UK remaining within a Common Market, that's what we agreed to stay in back when we had the last referendum. I've yet to meet anyone who has a good thing to say about the supremacy of EU regulations over UK laws, and personally I think the concept of free and open borders is plain barking mad (look at the opportunities this policy has given terrorists and free-loaders).

As for the EU maintaining peace in Europe, how on earth can anyone reach that staggering conclusion? Relative peace (and let's not forget that a couple of EU states were effectively at war only a couple of decades ago) has been because of economic reasons and because there has been no cause for large scale conflict. Arguably, the memory of the massive cost and loss of life in the last two World Wars has had a particularly stabilising influence on some member states.

I cannot see why the UK cannot just pull out of the EU, yet remain a member of what was the EEC. The trading arrangements amongst member states are generally sound and make sense, the creeping federalisation doesn't.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 14:35
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MG23, I fully agree with you about the Cold War side of things. What I was referring to though, was democracy causing the peace between countries within Europe.
The EU has set the stage for a Europe-wide civil war.
That is exactly the threat to peace that I was referring to. And civil wars are very nasty.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 14:46
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I cannot see why the UK cannot just pull out of the EU, yet remain a member of what was the EEC. The trading arrangements amongst member states are generally sound and make sense, the creeping federalisation doesn't.
Because, once one country leaves the EU, more will follow. They're desperate to keep the UK in until it's too late to leave (e.g. after Cameron has handed over the British military to Brussels in a few years).

The EU is a monster that has to keep growing and sucking in more power, or it will die.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 15:02
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Originally Posted by Mr Oleo Strut View Post
Greatest problem - top-heavy centralised bureaucracy, which must be streamlined, its finances sorted out and accounts properly signed off.
I would add lack of democratic accountability, labyrinthine organisational structure, constant expansion of itís own powers and inappropriate aspirations of statehood amongst others to the negatives.

Personally, I think the positives and negatives are finely balanced. Iím willing to be convinced either way. On balance, I would prefer to stay in a reformed Europe, so Iím willing to see what concessions Cameron can negotiate, although I suspect theyíll be cosmetic. I donít number myself amongst the Ďwith one bound we are freeí lobby; there will be a painful re-adjustment if we leave. But equally, Iíve no doubt that longer term we can prosper outside the EU.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 15:13
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Does it have to be 'in' or 'out'?

Couldn't we just go for the 'shake it all about' option?

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Old 21st Dec 2015, 15:16
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I was once having a cup of tea with the Head of BAOR (I occasionally used to move very peripherally in such circles) when I asked him directly about the threat from Russia (as it was).


His reply was swift, he said peace was down to NATO's refusal to sign a 'no first use of nuclear weapons' agreement with the Russians. He said Russia never knew if we would or if we wouldn't use them if they rolled over the plains of the then East Germany and it was that, and only that, that kept them from wheeling over.


So, nothing to do with the EU then, but all about NATO. I think he was in a position to know.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 15:42
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Peace in Europe is due to the have nations still making money. War will eventually come when enough of the poor fill up the coffers of the rich nations.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 15:46
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it's "out" from me.
the sooner we stop bankrolling lame duck economies, the better.
as a nation of nearly 70 million consumers, the EU is desperate to trade with us. just think of all the mercs and bm's germany sells to us.
exit the EU and we will pay a lot less for cars and most other goods.
not to mention, regaining control of our borders and immigration numbers.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 16:39
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In or out of the EEC was once the question.
The EEC became the EU. After we are wired into someone's secret agenda of a United States of Europe.
You may be happy to answer this question in 2016.
What will the question be in "another" forty years and in what language will it be asked in.
When you are asked to submit or die ? What will your answer be ?
It will interesting to see what the big eared guy who wanted to be defender for all faiths will answer.
Happy Holidays
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 16:53
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Definitely out. The EU is undemocratic, serving the ideals of a few politicians, is pissing money against the wall (without the new bounce-it-back-at-the-source paint, unfortunately) and is not what my parents voted on back in the 70s. A common market yes, but not a United States of Europe.

As for Cameron's negotiations, it's irrelevant as to whether he gets what he asked for, given that he didn't ask for what I want I consider it extremely unlikely that he will get it.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 16:56
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We need to get out of this politicians bonanza as soon as possible.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 17:01
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Way back when, I thought that the idea of being 'in Europe' was a good idea, indeed, it permitted me to move overseas in the 1980s to a job when my UK job was 'doomed'.
It also allowed my children to think of themselves as European at a time when their prospects in the UK seemed uncertain.

However, over time, as we have been more and more embroiled by a Federal Europe I believe it is time to say 'enough' and leave.

As suggested, the Common Market was probably as far as we should have gone.

Did we dodge a bullet by rejecting the Euro currency?


Federal Europe.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 17:25
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Greatest achievement - 70 years of peace in Europe
Might want to reword to ensure accuracy given that war and ethnic cleansing has occurred in Europe within the past 70 years.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 17:45
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What most people forget is the British Public were never asked if we wanted to be in the then Common Market, we were just taken in by that arse Heath, we had no referendum about joining, later on we were asked if we wanted to remain in the common market in a referendum,had the public known then what a arsole organisation it would become I dont thnk we would be in now.
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 22:44
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Originally Posted by Mr Oleo Strut View Post
The EU:
I vote to stay in. Your views?
In.

I became convinced of this while living the USA when I realised all my close friends were of recent European descent. Speaking skool-buoy French and German may have had an influence too. I've enjoyed my time in those countries and others, such as Hungary, Austria, Switzerland where I could use those languages.

Yes, fix the bureaucrats and the pollities too, but I don't see them as worse than in any country, state, county, district or parish I've lived in. Well I might make an exception for a small number of my local Parish Council members, but their influence is so small and their income from it so small too, that I believe they do it for conscience.

OTOH for many years I was careful to point out that I was British in the face of certain country's lack of geographical teaching in skool. Now I am English first and European second. Thank you SNP and Plaid Cymru.

Remember Chaucer was a Gummint Tax Collector in his day-job, on a percentage of his "winnings". The gravy-train is not new!

'a
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