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The Volkswagen pollution monitor defeat device.

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The Volkswagen pollution monitor defeat device.

Old 22nd Sep 2015, 12:14
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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As a result, emission of NOx increased by a factor of 10 to 40 times above the EPA compliant levels
That's a fair amount of non-compliance (1000% to 4000%), funny how it was missed (unless VW was pissing in the EPA's pocket). Does anyone know the figures on what percentage engine power increase that would achieve.

I reckon there will be a lot of gutless VW's tootling around town after all this is said and done.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 12:25
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Some of the performance cars have valves that open in the exhaust system at high revs that provide a temporary more direct route through the exhaust to improve engine response. I suspect the particulate filter is briefly bypassed allowing the cloud of soot to emerge. Under more moderate acceleration the particulate filter would burn off the soot deposits in the exhaust. It isn't exactly cheating because the average emissions are low when the cars are driven with a certain degree of restraint.

KenV
The protectionism refers to the whole US car industry, not Californian car manufacturers. European car manufacturers have consistantly maintained that their cars are more fuel efficient and cleaner than large engined American gas guzzlers for many years. It appears that the situation is not quite as clear cut in terms of pollutants emitted as has been assumed. Large engines have the potential to be more efficient than small high revving engines in terms of power developed per unit of fuel used. US manufacturers have therefore been facing increasing pressure to produce cars that matched or exceeded the fuel economy figures of European car makers. So US manufacturers have been losing sales in favour of more fuel efficient, environmentally friendly European cars; except it seems the European cars aren't really any better for the environment.

This is a pretty big deal because California considered as an independent State is something like the worlds' fifth biggest economy, so whatever regulations they decide to enforce will have repercussions around the globe.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 14:00
  #43 (permalink)  
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City analysts suggesting this marks the end of the diesel engine in Europe - it seems finished in the USA anyway....

Grauniad:

....City firm Bernstein has predicted that the Volkswagen crisis will end the era of diesel cars in Europe.

Analyst Max Warburton argues that European regulators had already begun to backtrack after promoting diesel in the 1990s. This week’s revelations will spur them on.
Future emissions standards in Europe were already set to tighten the rules on NOx and particulate emissions and even though diesel could theoretically hit these standards, the costs of compliance (due to additional hardware and tech) was going to make diesel uncompetitive in small cars with low price points.
That’s good news for petrol and electric vehicles, Warburton adds.
The move against VW is going to act as a catalyst to speed up the fall in diesel market share in Europe and halt it in the US. In fact, regulators will now be much more conservative about what they permit and much tougher real world tests may prove either too difficult – or too expensive – for diesel to meet.


Die Welt suggesting that the scandal could bring down the whole group....

The economics editor of German newspaper Die Welt has warned that Volkswagen is now under attack from all sides, and asked whether the emissions crisis could bring down the company.

Nikolaus Doll says that the scandal has reached a dimension that could threaten the existence of the automaker, given the costs and penalties ahead. He cites the huge cost of replacing software in the cars affected, and the threat of class actions from customers affected. More here.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 14:51
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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I see it as a massive societal and media over-reaction. I await the judicial over-reaction. The cars run just fine and the present VW diesel engine is many times cleaner than it was 10 years ago.

Driving 2 km less per day, or idling less than 2 minutes per run will yield the same result as a massive multi-million dollar recall campaign.

Want to save the world and reduce emissions and improve fuel consumption by 10%? Drive less. Combine your trips. Don't idle the motor while the car is unoccupied. Ride your bicycle to the pub instead of driving. Simple stuff really.

Automobile and motorcycle engine manufacturers have been engineering transitory clean-burn power realms to satisfy environmental criteria for decades.

The re-calibration will result in a change that is so small as to be immeasurable in its global impact on the environment.

Last edited by evansb; 22nd Sep 2015 at 15:02.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 15:03
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I was thinking how VW could have programmed the cars to do what they're being accused of. I see three ways:


1. The driving wheels are turning, the others are not, ergo I'm on a test bench.
2. It seems I'm going at 50mph, however accelerometers didn't indicate any acceleration, ergo ...
3. It seems I'm going at 50mph, however GPS doesn't indicate any movement, ergo ...
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 15:43
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
I can't help feeling this has all been overblown by the Californian environmental lobby as a form of protectionism.
Could be, but any reporter from any state sniffing major corporate fraud will be on it like a shark on blood.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 16:04
  #47 (permalink)  
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My current small diesel is VED-free, however, identical vehicles from 2017 will pay an average £140 per annum.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 16:21
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I was thinking how VW could have programmed the cars to do what they're being accused of. I see three ways:


1. The driving wheels are turning, the others are not, ergo I'm on a test bench.
2. It seems I'm going at 50mph, however accelerometers didn't indicate any acceleration, ergo ...
3. It seems I'm going at 50mph, however GPS doesn't indicate any movement, ergo ...
4. I've been going at 50mph for several minutes, and the steering wheel has never turned one degree, ergo ...
5. I've been going at 50mph for several minutes, however the air temperature and barometric pressure have never varied at all, ergo ...
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 17:42
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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As a driver who hated Diesels 20 years ago I now prefer them and when hiring I request them.

20 years ago being behind a diesel was like being behind a tractor, you could smell it.

Over last 10 years aside from a few older cars I find that I sense no smell like before.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 17:45
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
As a driver who hated Diesels 20 years ago I now prefer them and when hiring I request them.

20 years ago being behind a diesel was like being behind a tractor, you could smell it.

Over last 10 years aside from a few older cars I find that I sense no smell like before.
The ppm of sulfur has gone down in the last round of "improve our fuel" efforts, including "ultra low sulfur diesel."
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 17:48
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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I've been going at 50mph for several minutes, however the air temperature and barometric pressure have never varied at all, ergo ...
Ergo I'm being driven across the flatlands of Texas by the type of fukkwit who'd put a gunrack in a Beetle and doesn't give a shit about fuel consumption.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 18:53
  #52 (permalink)  

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Per just looked on a Skoda site (Briskoda). Seems the engines affected were used throughout VAG, Skoda Yeti included.

looks like a witch hunt of Ralph Nader proportions and I expect there are a load of very worried auto industry executives worldwide
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 19:32
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By wonderful coincidence there's a programme celebrating the diesel engine on BBC4 tomorrow (listed weeks ago).
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 19:48
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Sounds like protectionism to me. As far as i'm aware only a very small percentage of American's drive diesel cars anyway. There will be more co2 and hot air produced discussing and resolving the issue than the emissions themselves.For example we all know the MPG figures for cars are bollicks anyway..its basically a comparison of how one car in a shed on a rolling road compares with another...in other words this one is better than that one

Its been along time coming but having reduced the co2 levels in the upper atmosphere we are now concerned with what is going on in our towns and cities, mainly caused by deliberate congestion through poor traffic management and diesel powered public transport...so we will switch to petrol and increase levels of CO2 again...do we choke or get our feet wet?

Perhaps they should compare the emissions of a Passat to a Ford F40 pick up or the average 3L V6 motor....puts things in perspective then dunnit

The Govt will rub their hands when we all get out of our cars doing 60 mpg back into petrol ones that do 45 mpg...extra fuel , more tax taken.

I expect all manufacturers are at it but it sounds like diesels days could be numbered

Last edited by Burnt Fishtrousers; 22nd Sep 2015 at 20:06.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 19:53
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General Motors killed at least 124 people with a known defective part. They paid a remarkably lenient voluntary 'fine' of a few hundred million, which goes to gumment coffers, not real people.

VW knows that they will get severely hammered for their fraud and have already set aside six Billion bucks, knowing that the shakedown will actually be for a ten figure sum, not mere billions.

Of course, GM is rather better represented at The House(s) of Shame than the Germans are. Yer jerry is more than a little averse to corruption on the American scale than the modern day fascists of America are.

Here's how/why the shakedown of the stingey Germans will be an order of magnitude worse, for an environmental offence, than GM's was for the crime of mass killing of human beings:

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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 20:46
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Originally Posted by Cazalet33 View Post
Here's how/why the shakedown of the stingey Germans will be an order of magnitude worse, for an environmental offence, than GM's was for the crime of mass killing of human beings:
My, don't we like to rant ... my Saturn was subject to that recall, and funnily enough, nobody died when it took seven bleeding months to get the ignition switch changed out. On the other hand, there are a few things GM have done otherwise that has removed them from "ever buy another GM car" so I have two other cars Built In America: two Toyotas, both made in Indiana.

What is going on here is that someone caught wind of fraud, and dug into it. Muckraking like this has been a popular sport in this country since the original muckrakers in the Teddy Roosevelt era went after John D Rockefeller and big oil. Ya know, for over a century. That VW got caught doing something outside of the box isn't a surprise, since the global competition for our market is severe.

I am sad to see this happen. My first car was a VW, I got a used on for my daughter, and the recent Audi sedans are vey nice machines. (Have a friend at work who got one. Good car).
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 20:46
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I think the source of the fiddle is a whistleblower in the German government trying to take the heat off Merkel for fouling up the immigration issue.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 20:47
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
I think the source of the fiddle is a whistleblower in the German government trying to take the heat off Merkel for fouling up the immigration issue.
Is this a guess, or do you have a link or story that proposes this?

Originally Posted by Burnt Fishtrousers View Post
Sounds like protectionism to me. ---
I expect all manufacturers are at it but it sounds like diesels days could be numbered
Wow, overreact much?
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 21:00
  #59 (permalink)  
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One could postulate that the previously (ousted) CEO (Burnt Fishtrousers) has blown the whistle to get back at the current CEO - but I doubt that either CEO would have had the foggiest idea about this event.

True, someone at VW was aware of what was going on (probably a few 'technicians'and at least one designer), but this is not the sort of thing that would have needed approval at board level.
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 21:04
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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If you lived UK with the ever burgeoning green restrictions , taxes, concessions to cyclists ,public transport then the days of diesel may well be numbered. There is already talk of charging diesel drivers to enter towns and cites based on emissions of NO2

It used to be CO2 so diesels were favourable as CO2 emission levels were lower...we were all encouraged to drive Diesels, company car tax was less for Diesel drivers......now its all about nitrous oxides and particulates which are higher in diesels and responsible for immediate smog as opposed to long term ozone layer damage and global warming,which means diesels will eventually be taxed out of favour.....there are some pretty good petrol engines about now with some pretty sophisticated systems that give them almost the same efficiency as a diesel engine
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