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A Sickness in US Society

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A Sickness in US Society

Old 1st Sep 2015, 06:11
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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If you want to put the RWS on the spot and get them to justify their stance ask them to justify this

http://nypost.com/2015/08/31/dad-shoots-daughter-in-stomach-while-cleaning-gun/

you just got to love the 2nd
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 06:15
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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If you are of the belief that a citizen should not have a gun, go on to the next message.

Please remember we are 50 States. That is 50 sets of rules. Some may think that in Texas you can get a bottle of whisky and a gun at a drive through. I don't know for sure. Here in California to get a new gun I must obtain it from someone with a FFL (federal firearms license). I must pass, or previously passed, a test to obtain a Firearm Safety Card. I must supply a photo ID with my address on it (normally drivers license) and a utility bill no more that 90 days old with my current address. I fill out this federal form https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download Please note some of the questions. I pay some fees and pay for the gun then wait 10 days. And that is 10 - 24 hour periods exactly. I must wait until 13:13 this coming Sunday to get my latest purchase. Not 13:12. On that day I must also have a gun lock. Most new guns in CA come with a lock. If it does not I can bring my own but I need a receipt showing it was purchased within the last 30 days. Even though I have 20 in my home safe.

All the above in spite of the 2nd Amendment not requiring it. And note a criminal will do none of it.

Once I have the gun at home I can protect myself under the following guideline:
(California Penal Code Section 198.5), granting a justification for deadly force inside one’s residence. If someone forces his or her way into your home, and you have a “reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury,” then you would be justified in using deadly force to defend yourself.

If the criminal is holding my TV I can't shoot him. But if he throws it at me I can. But, depending on the local District Attorney, I may still have to convince a jury that I feared for my life.

At this point the criminal's family can, and given the current climate will probably, sue me in civil court.

All the above to be safe in my home. But remember, when seconds count, the police are minutes away.
IBMJunkman is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2015, 06:57
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Started in Colonial days. you needed a rifle to hunt for food and keep off the Indians.
Then everyone became upset with King George and rifles were needed to assert independence and keep off the Indians.
Then someone said "Go West youngster" and guns were needed to hunt for food, protect against the outlaws who went along west and of course, the Indians.
In the west things settled down to towns and pesky outlaws and guns were needed to hunt and protect. Don't forget the Indians.
Eventually there were too many guns and outlaws and the sheriffs and marshals arrived and in some towns you weren't allowed in armed. But, you still needed guns to hunt and keep off the Indians.
With the Industrial revolution it all became a bit of a muddle. You didn't need to hunt really. The Indians were deaded or put in their place and there were cops all over the place.
Minor kerfuffal with organized gangsters in the 20's and 30's but the cops prevailed eventually. Organized crome is now so much more civilized (except for the Russians - where did they come from?)
Now, you don't NEED to hunt but there are tons of criminals and ad hoc gang members who aren't men without a gun (makes up for leaving school after grade 5) and not enough good, effective cops around.
The armaments industry has to be protected. It employs people and makes money doesn't it and besides the Redcoats might come back at anytime and the Constitution foresaw that eventuality so everyone has the right to bear arms - subject to various federal, state and municipal ordinances.
It is the "Wild West" It never went away.

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Old 1st Sep 2015, 07:40
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Chuks - you picked a ludicrous example with regards to American sniper - he and his buddy were shot dead by a nutcase he was trying to help - by someone who should never have been allowed to get his hands on a gun. With regards to auto fatalities,this year it is expected that auto fatalities will be less than gun deaths in the USA - that is something you can be proud of is it not?
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 08:00
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Trying to avoid sounding shrill...

Before we damn all gun owners to hell, consider the principal causes of violence in the US. That's key to understanding the societal malaise.

Once again, I must say, the overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the US is due to gang violence, urban mayhem (poverty) and the failed war on drugs. These deaths are facilitated by an enormous amount of cheap handguns on the street.

You're not going to keep guns from criminals. Law enforcement confiscates weapons piecemeal and every once in a while, ATF manages to score a cache or two, but that's about as good as it gets.

The key to solving the problem is addressing the underlying societal dysfunction first. Bailing the bilges on a sinking ship is pointless unless you plan to seal the hull too.

Last edited by vapilot2004; 1st Sep 2015 at 09:33.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 09:17
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Mr. Gallacher, make that someone who, with hindsight, should never have been allowed to get his hands on a gun. Sadly, he was, by two of your "trained professionals" on a "gun range." So much for your vision of safety guaranteed by some sort of nanny state.

Guns are dangerous objects. It's interesting that it was okay for you, a relative stranger, to be handed such a highly dangerous object, a full-automatic MP5, but perhaps not for anyone else to be handed one under the same circumstances. I guess you must be special, right?

Speaking of dangerous objects, cars are, according to the numbers, even more dangerous than guns, but, yes, let's focus exclusively on guns, because Mr. Gallacher tells us to .... Me, I'm just being ludicrous.

Tell that one to the judge: There's an on-going case here of a toe-rag who got blind drunk and chose to run his car down the sidewalk to kill someone who had wounded his feelings. So in the States he would have shot the guy? Maybe, maybe not .... (Anyone contemplating automotive mayhem needs to think about moving to Germany. This horrible little man's defense is based upon two things: he was so drunk that he was not responsible for his actions; he is so visually impaired that he did not see the guy he ran over. Gun-maniacs are also in with a chance here; despite very strict gun-control laws we do manage to have the odd massacre. Google "Amoklauf von Winnenden" and run that past Google Translate to see what I mean.)

Some moron shoots his daughter while cleaning his pistol. Yes? Another one backs over his daughter using the family car. You seriously expect someone who is "pro-gun" to justify the first, and, perhaps, someone who is "pro-car" to justify the second?

Stretch your mind around this one: A beaver felled a tree onto the railroad tracks here in Lower Saxony not long ago, creating great risk and delay. Those of you who are "pro-beaver," please justify that!

No, it's "Bad (gun/car/beaver)! Bad-bad-bad!" Happy now?

Guns, cars, beavers ... all part of the landscape, when it's a matter of how to deal with them. To say, essentially, "It's okay for me to be handed an MP5 because that is a reasonable risk, but it's not okay for anyone else to be handed one because that is an unreasonable risk," really is ludicrous, even if it gives one warm, fuzzy feelings to say so.

Some lunatic might drop a keg of beer off a balcony and kill your granny. Should you then ask beer drinkers to justify that?

To a libertarian, there's no justification called for in any of this. The rest of us, please do tie yourselves in knots trying to find justification in asking, no, demanding justification for any of this. It's "life," and you guys should think about getting one!
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 09:33
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Vapilot,

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against gun ownership. As I've stated before, I am a licensed gun owner and own a .410 shotgun (it's good for when snakes are having a go at the chooks, and that's about it). It's locked in an approved gun-safe dynabolted to a concrete slab floor. If I want to buy ammunition I need to provide my shooters licence and all my particulars are taken down at point of sale. To get my licence I needed to pass a police probity check and pass a firearm safety course.

I can buy a bolt/lever action rifle if I wish. I cannot buy a semi-automatic or fully automatic rifle or shotgun. I cannot buy a pistol (or a submachine gun, or a flamethrower, or a cannon. etc..)

You see on my graphic the per-capita homicides in Australia.

Question. Why can't similar 'regulations' work in the US?
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 10:16
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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I have nothing against gun ownership. As I've stated before, I am a licensed gun owner and own a .410 shotgun (it's good for when snakes are having a go at the chooks, and that's about it). It's locked in an approved gun-safe dynabolted to a concrete slab floor. If I want to buy ammunition I need to provide my shooters licence and all my particulars are taken down at point of sale. To get my licence I needed to pass a police probity check and pass a firearm safety course.
The rules and checkpoints you illustrate show the intelligence of the AUS system (and the UK and much of the EU) and if laws like that could ever get past the gun lobby, it would be an act of good government to enact and enforce them. However, not all see it that way and we live in a partisan society. What's more, it is an emotional issue - one that is arguably at the core of what it means to be an American.

Why can't similar 'regulations' work in the US?
Maybe one day and perhaps bit by bit is the way forward, Hempy. There has been some slow progress, admittedly only where law enforcement is at issue. The problem now is Elvis has left the building - hand guns are unfortunately here to stay. Well, that and the fact that the political system in the US is broken. Money and entrenched interests have taken over (as if they had no power in prior times...).

It is currently "might is right" rather than the proper alternative in this case. Progressive or not, all governments are prone to that belief in one way or another. Yours just happens to have an agreed upon solution to this specific problem - people can be impulsive and a sea of hand guns might not be the best thing for a society that likes to think of itself as swimming towards the light. Well done.


The American future could be bullet control. In addition to registration of buyers as your government has wisely enacted, there needs to be a high tech solution - perhaps the micro identifiers used in tazers could be adapted to bullets.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 13:04
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Dropping in for a visit. Have any of the Anti gun types solved anything? Converted anyone?

Keep at it lads.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 13:42
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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The solution seems to be that they have chosen to live outside the USA. Problem solved, plus they get to whinge and moan here about the USA being "sick," so sick that it's the top destination of choice for emigrants.

Conversions ... well yes! Count me in on that. I used to be sort of "on the fence" on this one, but after being subjected to a steady rain of pious anti-gun drivel I think I need to start visiting our Schützenverein more often, just because .... No Marine Scout Snipers, no Heckler & Koch MP5s, but one national German champion and a few regional German champions, and .22 and .177 pistols and air rifles.

If a child were to ignore the warning signs, climb the high fence, and then somehow find its way onto the range while firing was in progress, God only knows what might happen. Oh, the huge manatee!
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 13:54
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks
The solution seems to be that they have chosen to live outside the USA. Problem solved, plus they get to whinge and moan here about the USA being "sick," so sick that it's the top destination of choice for emigrants.

Conversions ... well yes! Count me in on that. I used to be sort of "on the fence" on this one, but after being subjected to a steady rain of pious anti-gun drivel I think I need to start visiting our Schützenverein more often, just because .... No Marine Scout Snipers, no Heckler & Koch MP5s, but one national German champion and a few regional German champions, and .22 and .177 pistols and air rifles.

If a child were to ignore the warning signs, climb the high fence, and then somehow find its way onto the range while firing was in progress, God only knows what might happen. Oh, the huge manatee!
Other than 'Rambo' drivel from an ex-American near 70 year old, what is your point exactly??
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 14:18
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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I've got it, I see it. Guns, guns are the problem, they are an addiction, a sickness.

Take a simple thread about American society,about culture. A thread that almost stays on topic about WHY people kill. Suddenly the addiction hits, and people can't help but talk about guns, about the constitution,about a country they don't live in,a culture they are not a part of.

No distraction of answering other points put to them, no way they can tear themselves away from their beloved guns to see that other countries have murders,other countries have gun crime. No sir, nothing keeps them from their gun addiction.

Its a sickness, a sickness I tell you....
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 14:19
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hempy View Post
Other than 'Rambo' drivel from an ex-American near 70 year old, what is your point exactly??
That because he disagrees with you. Nice.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 14:23
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Not at all. I'm genuinely interested in what the point he's trying to make is...

It reads a lot like "fk you, don't take my guns". Which is a fine, right-wing 'fk you all' attitude if that's the way you roll.

But tell me how it HELPS anything..,
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 14:34
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
The American future could be bullet control. In addition to registration of buyers as your government has wisely enacted, there needs to be a high tech solution - perhaps the micro identifiers used in tazers could be adapted to bullets.
That is the situation in California. The State has a list of approved handguns that can be sold in the state. Manufacturers wanting to sell a handgun in the state had to submit the gun for testing and pay a fee. Some guy had a patent on a method to imprint a serial number on a casing and the primer while it was being shot in a semi-automatic handgun. It is called micro-stamping. The idiot California politicians decided that when it was released to the public all semi-auto handguns must use the technology. No manufacturer is going to make a gun model unique to California. So our list is easily down 50%. As long as companies pay the fees current non-imprinting guns can stay on the list.

Take a minute and think about imprinting. I am at the range. I fail to pick up all my spent brass. Someone else gets it and it then gets dropped at a crime scene. Police will spend time tracking me down and I will have to prove I was not at the crime scene. The serial number prevents nothing. Criminals don't register their guns.

A new gun company claims to have a smart gun. It uses a fingerprint to allow firing. Can you imagine depending on that to work every time? Does it work on your cellphone EVERY time? And of course our idiot politicians are looking into it as a future feature requirement.

Once again, none of this is mentioned in the 2nd Amendment.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 14:47
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hempy View Post
Not at all. I'm genuinely interested in what the point he's trying to make is...

It reads a lot like "fk you, don't take my guns". Which is a fine, right-wing 'fk you all' attitude if that's the way you roll.

But tell me how it HELPS anything..,
I buy guns at times simply because I want them. I don't have to show a demonstrated need. I don't have pass some needs testing from the govt to possess one. I understand this might be an alien concept to you, but if you want to understand US views towards ownership, you need to wrap your head around this. It doesn't need to help as you put it, though having a weapon can help often.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 15:20
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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I'm genuinely interested in why ...

Someone who is genuinely interested in what someone else has posted leads off by labeling it "drivel." That's not a very productive approach, but perhaps you have to be a bit older to understand that, Hempy.

You think I am pro-gun, I suppose. Well, yes, and pro-beaver, pro-car, pro- going swimming without wearing a flotation device, pro- letting people just sort of get on with stuff without sticking my nose into whatever that is if it doesn't concern me. I recently spent three years in Vermont, a state that puts very few controls on the ownership, carriage, and use of firearms, when that was something I paid very, very little attention to, probably less than some of you do despite living very far away from the USA. Now, why is that?

I want to say this in the nicest possible way: Most of you guys who think you are peddling some sort of coherent point of view about the need for gun control in the States really come off as incapable of joined-up thought. I wouldn't want to see you regulating whelks, to the general public, sale of, frankly, let alone attempting to negotiate the twists and turns of the American relationship to firearms. There's a lot in that you seem to have missed.

Why not toddle off now, and read up on the plight of refugees exiled on Christmas Island by Australia, to see if you can work up a good head of steam about something closer to home?
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 15:57
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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As vapilot (who can hold a reasonable conversation about the issue without veins popping out of his forehead and having an attack of the vapours..) says;

we live in a partisan society. What's more, it is an emotional issue
Certainly emotional for you two.

Vapilot, thank you for the insight.

Rambo one and two, you are the 'issue'..

'out'
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 16:23
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hempy View Post
I still haven't heard a plausible explanation as to why so many more people are shot in the US than any other western country...
Over 60% of firearm deaths are suicide. So that's one reason: offing one's self seems quite the hobby here, which perhaps is related to the title of this thread. What's funny (in a sick and macabre way) is that not 100% succeed. Some folks are complete ups and/or utterly devoid of reason to live, no reason to see the next sunrise. So they try to end it all, and put the old gun to the head ... and that up as well. Pathos, I suppose, as a form of sad comedy. They ought to take the advice of Warren Zevon(as sung by Linda Ronstadt) in Poor Pitiful Me: less likely to it up.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 16:28
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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Oooh!

Well, a certain someone seems to have had an attack of the "vapours" here, and I don't think it's me, or WC either. Yes, the Youth Brigade, when last seen, was marching off in high dudgeon. Not for long, and not very far, is my guess ....

Here in Germany one may buy a flamethrower, so that I did buy one. (In a dissimilar way, one can buy a Kalashnikov, although one may not.) It's not very big, my flamethrower, and it doesn't throw flames very far, but then I only use it on weeds, just as I only use my rifle on targets.
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