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Aerotoxic in the news

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Aerotoxic in the news

Old 6th Mar 2015, 15:22
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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There seems to be a group who are firmly convinced that there is a problem - without any evidence except anecdotal.Until there is some kind of hard evidence an open mind should be kept.The doctor who provoked the MMR scare with his 'evidence' linking it to autism caused untold damage with his agenda.
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Old 6th Mar 2015, 15:54
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Aerotoxic

BCG

I also live in Scotland where there are NO specialists in Asbergers or organophosphate exposure...........Please look at the list of symptoms on the Aerotoxic.org website; I have most of them!!

And also wait for the final inquest report on Richard Westgate, who died at 43

Last edited by dbee; 6th Mar 2015 at 15:58. Reason: error and omission
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Old 6th Mar 2015, 18:38
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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BCG, the conviction that there is a problem is based on personal experience for most of us. Denial is the more blinded stance, since there is plenty of evidence for the existence of an issue and none for the lack of it.
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Old 6th Mar 2015, 19:03
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Mack

Chronic medium level exposure certainly creates problems (agricultural workers are the most at risk), but data on the effects of chronic low or very-low level exposure is very hard to separate from random noise. The answer to finding out whether Aerotoxic Syndrome is real is proper scientific study and there seems to be a dearth of that.

Because the CAA does not want to know. As usual, the city bureaucrats want an easy job, and confronting issues like this makes life difficult for them. Same with the agricultural sector, where the 1990 report on organophosphates was apparently destroyed:

Crucial sheep dip poisoning document 'destroyed' - Farmers Weekly

But it is well known that organophospates effect memory:
Exposure to organophosphates harm memory, say scientists - Farmers Weekly


So can constant low-level exposure effect memory? I think so, but I cannot really remember. Do I push or pull to rotate....? (Yeah - our aircraft used to fill with blue smoke on start-up too. But the APU was the worst offender.)

Frankly, the pen-pushers in their comfy offices with comfy pensions, are betraying all of the people who work on the front line. In all industries. They need a kick up the backside - all of them.
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Old 6th Mar 2015, 19:11
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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bcgall

There seems to be a group who are firmly convinced that there is a problem - without any evidence except anecdotal.

You are ignoring reality, Bcgall. Which pilot is going to volunteer for the chop, by telling the medic he cannot remember anything? How do you tell the wife and kids, that you have thrown in the towel, and you all need to move to a two-bed terrace? Besides, when I went to the medic complaining of constant headaches from flying, all I got was more paracetamol.

The simple truth is that aviation has long mastered the art of 'tombstone technology'. The real problem is that we now have 'tombstone management' to deal with too.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 07:21
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Aluminium shuffler,Silverstrata, I have no doubts that you are unfortunate to have problems with your health. The difficulty is that at present there is no physical evidence that it is caused by organophosphates. There are other factors in flying such as high ozone levels etc which could cause health problems. The fact that so few pilots suffer these problems - pilots in fact are living longer than the general population for example - makes me a little sceptical.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 09:39
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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No evidence!!!!!!!!!

bcgallacher says that all the evidence is "anecdotal". Try telling that to Richard Westgates parents. The evidence is very real, and very scientific. He may be the first person to die from this who has actually tested for it, but he isn't going to be the last. Unless the person doing the autopsy knows what to look for specifically, then the problem does not manifest itself. There have been many aircrew who have died "out of normal age range" who's death certificates give cause of death as "TBA", because they haven't been checked for this condition.
As for the comment from someone about people wanting to "get rich quick" through the loss of licence payouts, I've had mine, but I'm still out of pocket by over a million pounds in lost income. So not getting very rich at all.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 10:46
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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As for the comment from someone about people wanting to "get rich quick" through the loss of licence payouts, I've had mine, but I'm still out of pocket by over a million pounds in lost income. So not getting very rich at all.
Exactly right explorer61! Most pilots that start getting sick and lose their license are in the mid-40's (or older) and that's a very difficult age to jump start a new career and a new life. Pocketing a few 100k of the average Loss of License might sound tempting for the average Joe Sixpack and is perhaps enough to pay off the mortgage, but it does not provide the ex-pilot and his family with any retraining for a new job and any income to provide for the family.

This 'argument' is unfortunately very typical either for pilots who like to stick their head in the sand, or people with a direct interest (read: airline management and aircraft manufacturers) in a desperate attempt to keep this firmly swept under the carpet.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 11:04
  #169 (permalink)  

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"bcgallacher says that all the evidence is "anecdotal". Try telling that to Richard Westgates parents. The evidence is very real, and very scientific. He may be the first person to die from this who has actually tested for it, but he isn't going to be the last. Unless the person doing the autopsy knows what to look for specifically, then the problem does not manifest itself."

I am very sorry for Mr Westgate and his parents, however the evidence for the existence of "aerotoxic syndrome" is both ill-defined and not currently scientifically supported.

In my profession tens of thousands of women were needlessly alarmed and many thousands of implant removal surgeries were performed during the silicone breast implant controversy on the basis of anecdotal and unscientific "evidence".

Subsequent in-depth and controlled studies have overwhelmingly demonstrated that "silicone adjuvant disease" does not exist as a scientifically demonstrable phenomenon.

See - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...f/10700847.pdf et seq.

The only people who profited from that scare were the lawyers who started the whole business on the flimsiest of anecdotal evidence from patients, without any attempt at scientific validation.

Either you believe in the the scientific method or you don't, you cannot be selective. It is just as valid for the design of the jet turbine blades and wings that keep you up there as it is for putative syndromes such as aerotoxic syndrome or the purported genotoxicity of electromagnetic fields generated by 835-MHz mobile phone frequency band.

Aerotoxic syndrome may well exist but the preponderance of evidence so far is that it does not - or if it does, it is restricted to a very small population who are abnormally sensitive to trace amounts of some organophosphates (which they are just as likely to encounter at home or in the high street as on an aircraft).

By all means investigate further but to presume on the current evidence is incorrect.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 11:19
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Mac,

excellent balanced post.

you're no doubt about to get a roasting though.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 11:26
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Having been in the business for thirty years and never having had a problem my initial reaction was that there is no problem and it is an insurance scam.

I have moved on from this "no problem" stance to an opinion that just as some people have problems with things like nuts or shellfish there are some people who react very badly to very small amounts of the chemicals that are associated with aero toxic syndrome.

The industry is going away from bleed air systems for cabin air delivery but intill cabin air systems become 100% dry research needs to be done to try and identify persons who are likely to suffer from aerotoxic syndrome and keep them out of aircraft with cabin air systems that use bleed air.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 14:47
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Mac - Logic and facts will get you nowhere - a little like trying to debate with chemtrailers.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 18:21
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Well, bcgallacher is never going to understand it because he is quite clearly unable to digest what he reads. I said I have had a definite event on my aircraft that affected the vast majority of pax and all the cabin crew but that the cockpit was unaffected, and said in a previous post that my health seems fine - nothing other than slowing down a bit over the last ten years through a combination of age and fatigue. So, regardless of how hard he wants to defend the naysayer side of the argument, he is evidently unable to read the arguments made by the witnesses of the problem.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 18:37
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Good point Aluminium shuffler, and in addition I really don't understand why any pilot (if they really are pilots ) would really be against investigating any potentially toxic cabin air and would be willing to ridicule their own colleagues?
Do they also ridicule and actively discredit colleagues who point out that you're flying below MSA towards high terrain?

Let's be realistic, it can only benefit every pilot (including themselves!), cabin crew and passenger in the long run, right? So why not support them, or at least not try to sabotage them?

Are these people really only able to think inside the box (scary for pilots), or are they perhaps part of a "divide, ridicule and conquer" strategy of the very people who have a clear vested interest in trying to keep a lid on this thing?

Unless I'm an almond farmer or own a nuts store, why would I try to discredit someone who claims to have an allergic reaction to almonds?
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 19:02
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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ad hominen comments about posters do not advance arguments.

Whatever facts do exist they have not been sufficient to be used scientifically in a manner that can practically reduce the risk in a measurable fashion.

What is needed are proposals for practical ways of doing such scientific studies.

reminds me of the chicken little response to volcanic ash a few years back, until some of the big airlines came up with means of addressing "how much is too much" in a timely fashion. Other problems like icing also were addressed this way.

Life of course is not without risks, but it's nice to know just how much is to much.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 11:26
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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??Anecdotal??

Anecdote; A short usually amusing account of an incident??
From Medieval Latin meaning "Unpublished items".

Can the posters of descriptions of this problem as "anecdotal evidence" please explain how this is so?

Is the Bournemouth Senior Coroner, Sheriff Payne, a man likely to issue a Regulation 28 Report to "prevent future deaths" on the basis of anecdotal evidence, I seriously doubt this.

Senior Coroner Payne holds his post as a man who is capable of receiving and digesting large amounts of information and making legal judgements based on these. He does this to protect the interests of those of us who cannot digest 1000 page documents.

In the case of Richard Westgate the documents submitted to the Coroner exceeded one thousand pages and weighed greater than 3KGs. Is this an anecdote?

You can purchase Richards short form autopsy report online should any interested parties wish to read this "anecdote", it's 19 pages only and includes prepared slides of his OP damaged brain and nervous system.

The valid use of the term "anecdotal" in regard to this problem expired ten years ago.

I have inserted the link below to another "anecdote", it's BALPA s 320 page document prepared after their conference on this in 2005, please take special note of the last two pages. These show the signatories to this document.

I would suggest all BALPA members ask "Why the U turn on this", as I see one member already has.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...MJBtGnRXJwp9lg
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 12:05
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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nomansnemesis

That's quite a document, and BALPA are very unequivocal. Now that there is even more evidence, one wonders why they've changed their minds! Anyone care to speculate?
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 12:33
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NOMANSNEMESIS View Post
Anecdote; A short usually amusing account of an incident??
From Medieval Latin meaning "Unpublished items".

Can the posters of descriptions of this problem as "anecdotal evidence" please explain how this is so?

Is the Bournemouth Senior Coroner, Sheriff Payne, a man likely to issue a Regulation 28 Report to "prevent future deaths" on the basis of anecdotal evidence, I seriously doubt this.
The meaning of 'anecdotal evidence' is generally taken to be evidence without research support. Doesn't matter who provides the evidence.

Dictionary.com: "based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation"

or from Wikipedia: "The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases. Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a generalized claim; it is, however, perfectly acceptable for claims regarding a particular instance. Anecdotal evidence is no more than a type description (i.e., short narrative), and is often confused in discussions with its weight, or other considerations, as to the purpose(s) for which it is used. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims".

As has been stated further into the thread there is a need for real scientific assessment both of the potential fumes in the aircraft and of each of the cases being made, to check for other environmental effects that could cause the same issues, or sensitize the individuals to chemical fumes in the aircraft. For example: did the deceased use organophosphate weedkillers in a home greenhouse, persistent-insecticide strips in their kitchen, or had they had their homes cavity wall insulated - all of which could lead to low level persistent chemical air pollution in their home?

When all these checks have been done and the particular chemicals in the cabin air have been identified and have been shown, or, are known to cause the problems reported only then does the evidence cease to be anecdotal.
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 16:41
  #179 (permalink)  

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A Disease of Scienciness

https://medium.com/@writingben/a-dis...s-7b5571a34953

Worth a read.
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 20:17
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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The fact is, there is also no shortage of scientific analysis of aerotoxic syndrome and related issues.

A search of academic databases turns up various papers etc. So one would think that if there was any real issue the corporate lawyers would be getting the issue sorted.

As such you would have to think that if the issue is real it isn't showing up enough to raise flags at the moment from a numerical standpoint.
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