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Aerotoxic in the news

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Aerotoxic in the news

Old 27th Feb 2015, 12:51
  #121 (permalink)  
BRE
 
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I tend to be on the better safe than sorry side of the debate but this made me think (even if it is published by an interested side):

Kabinenluft-Studie jetzt auf Lufthansa-Kurzstrecke - Meldungen - Lufthansa Group

- mobile measurement box was rotated around A380 fleet, will now be used on 44 A321 flights (-> why A321 only?)
- mobile box was developed jointly by LH Technik and MHH (one of the top medical schools in the country)
- no contamination exceeding any limits found after 800 h abord A380s
- did detect TCP, but can distinguish between the 10 possible isomeres, never detected any of the six neurotoxic o-TCP at any time with a detection limit of 1 ng/m
- box seems to be able to do real time analysis as article mentions events like taxiing behind after aircraft or someone using a cleaning wipe can be detected
- box monitors 200 cabin air parameters, some through continuos logging, some by ex-situ lab analysis
- box installed in cockpit as one common air supply (maybe true for A380 but what about other models?)


Now I just wish for this box to be installed in more planes and more different types, and maybe a fume event to be simulated by intentional overfilling or installing faulty seals.

Last edited by BRE; 27th Feb 2015 at 15:46.
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Old 27th Feb 2015, 16:03
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Kenv, your mind is obviously closed. As they say in Scotland, "There's nane sae blind as them that winny see"
Hysterical blindness is a funny thing. The "Apollo was a hoax" crowd, the "9-11 attacks were done by the government" crowd, "immunizations cause autism" crowd, the "breast implants cause systemic disease" crowd, the "breast implants cause auto immune disease" crowd, and apparently now the "aerotoxic" crowd choose to be blind to mountains of data that DO exist which refute their claims, while simultaneously seeing all sorts of things that do not exist. (Such as diseases, deaths, toxic substances, high concentrations of toxins, mechanical failure modes, system failure modes, industry-government collusion, corporate conspiracies, manipulative vested interests, massive cover ups, etc, etc.)

The worst thing about these false scares is that it desensitizes lots of people to the possibility of a real danger, i.e. the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome. It seems the scare mongers have chosen to be blind to that, too.
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Old 27th Feb 2015, 16:29
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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As long as there is no meaningful scientific data that safety engineers can work from, there will only be more meaningless studies published for discussion.

"when all is said and done, more will be said then done"
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Old 27th Feb 2015, 22:03
  #124 (permalink)  
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BA chief Willie Walsh insists 'cabin air is safe' - ITV News
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Old 28th Feb 2015, 19:40
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Smoke and Mirrors

In response to some of the previous posts, specifically Kenv.

In reference to the heading of this post, Smoke and Mirrors, there has been some careful misdirection involved with this whole problem.

On the statement of lack of people suffering from this potent and ghastly Industrial Disease, I have eight friends from my previous company all suffering from baffling Neurologic diseases, all have generally the same symptoms. They are all diagnosed with different complaints (MS, PTSD, etc), and in some cases other tests have confirmed misdiagnosis. Due to mis diagnosis they sit reasonably financially secure with company insurance plans. They cannot mention Aerotoxic Syndrome for fear of having their insurance payments revoked.

I have two more with lung damage, both were very fit, their lung specialist do not know how they can have their lung problems as fit non smokers.

I have two friends dead, one is Richard Westgate, his early Inquest results are well known by now. The second dead friend (at 50) was not tested due to his grieving family wanting a quick funeral. I would also wish to point out that in the case of the Richard, his Coroners findings are not scaremongering or even just letters. BA and CAA have been served with a section 28 Order to prevent future loss of human life life. They have to comply with this order.

I also have many more "new" friends with the same neurologic problems and near identical symptoms.

I have also been sent a publication on the deaths of current active BA crew, somewhere between 23 and 27 dead during 2014, these are in all age brackets, not just the old ones. You can all find this at Angelfleet, some have stated this is a normal death rate, other research has shown it to be ten times normal.

The identical symptoms most of us suffer developed without contact or knowledge from any of the others.

In some previous posts, ToCP is mentioned. This is the most known toxic compound of the ten Isomers of TCP. This Isomer has been reduced in turbine engine oils to very small percentages. This is why most Airline affiliated testing shows no results.

The other Isomers are, however, also known to be similarly toxic. The toxicity of these in more specifically to the "Higher Cognitive functions". These compounds have been tested on rats and chickens that don't have higher cognitive functions.

There was some mention of these compounds being on Submarines and the ISS, as far as I know Jet engines and bleed air do not feature on these vehicles.

There is also a comment on the unavailability of detection systems. There is a German made real time system that can be fitted to any aircraft that shows any hydrocarbon content in bleed air. this is all the detection needed to allow a faulty bleed source to be turned off. i would ask all on these forums to ask themselves why these systems are not fitted?

A second detection system is your white shirt. I purchased a new one, wore it on one flight, then sent it to Prohealth in Holland for an Organophosphate test. It came back with a positive result for several OPs. Unless M&S is now selling OP laced shirts, it came from the Aircraft.

I sit typing this response totally exhausted, I have numb hands, the bad stomach I have had for seven years, Nystagmus and many other Aerotoxic Syndrome/OPIDN symptoms as do my collection of gassed friends.

I am also in the process of building a large legal case, also as are my gassed friends. Some will argue "Its all about the money" etc, I used to enjoy my global flying job, I am now left unable to travel, even as a passenger, unable to even visit the Airport without onset of symptoms. I also have $550,000US in lost pay, will lose $3.5M in career earnings in total. I have a company insurance scheme that is blocked by a very vindictive Airline ($150,000 owed).

Lastly, I would like to offer some pearls of wisdom as a former Captain/Instructor/CRM Instructor specifically for the Captains and wannabee Captains reading this.

You have an obligation to deal with any incipient/perceived threat using firm and decisive action. The thoughts contained in some preceding posts of "There is no problem" are defined in CRM terms as "Dangerous Attitudes", they are reportable actions in terms of defining those unsuitable to Fly and should result in a loss of flying status for all those involved.

Last edited by NOMANSNEMESIS; 28th Feb 2015 at 19:54. Reason: spelling grammar
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 06:08
  #126 (permalink)  
BRE
 
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@NOMANSNEMESIS

Thank you for posting your sobering story! I wish you luck in your quest! Have you considered contacting German unions VC (pilots) and UFO (CC)? I am sure they have more detailed information on the testing LH has been carrying out.

I am confused about your comment that your former colleagues cannot mention aerotoxic syndrome for fear of losing their insurance. Sick and disability insurance I am aware of does not come with a gag clause, and if you can prove the disability is work induced, the payout is higher / longer lasting rather than less.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 06:52
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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NOMANSNEMISIS

I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your plight, but can I ask a question some of the numbers being quoted:

I have also been sent a publication on the deaths of current active BA crew, somewhere between 23 and 27 dead during 2014, these are in all age brackets, not just the old ones. You can all find this at Angelfleet, some have stated this is a normal death rate, other research has shown it to be ten times normal.
In order to make any sense or draw any conclusions from those numbers and claims we need to know:

1.By "current active BA crew" do they mean just pilots ( about 4000), just cabin cabin crew (about 15000) or all flying crew ( around 19000).

2. Causes of death? Are these 23-27 all down to neurological disorders or are Angelfleet including deaths due to the likes of road traffic accidents, suicide, heart attacks, cancer, and/or other nasty illnesses that may well not be "aerotoxic" related but take their toll on all communities.

3.
some have stated this is a normal death rate, other research has shown it to be ten times normal.
...well which is it? I believe the death rate for that BA cohort and the death rate across the general population should be fairly easy to establish, though no doubt with a plus/minus, and the odd mention of standard deviations thrown in..it shouldn't be a matter of opinion.

This is one for the actuaries but to me 23-27 deaths (all tragic for all involved) across a community of 15000 or 19000 18-65 year olds doesn't sound like 10 times the "normal" rate. BTW we certainly didn't have 23-27 deaths in the active BA pilot group last year.

Last edited by wiggy; 1st Mar 2015 at 07:45.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 07:58
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Re the ' sock smell'

I was always told ( on the 757 ) that the smell came from the interior honeycomb liner on the inside of the engine cowling particularly during a full power take off when the blades flexed and scraped the honeycomb. Was this a load of BS from management. The same management also denied for years the effect of not having noise cancelling headphones.
IIRC the source of air to the cockpit came via a different route to the pax cabin air.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 08:37
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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APU Fumes issue..

Two areas cause the problems, 1..Engine bleed air, 2..APU Bleed air, I might be wrong but I think The Bae146 & B757 were fitted with The Garret 150M APU, this is a definite cause of air quality problems, the engines on The Bae146 also had a major problem with oil seals in the compressor section allowing Mobil Jet2 to be ingested into the air-con system, I have no experience on the 757, but flew The Bae146 for 4 years and often experienced the smell...so far no effects on me but my former partner who was a flight attendant on them had to stop flying after one particularly bad fume event in Hobart, Tasmania...other colleagues, pilots and flight attendants were also affected to varying degrees, i.e. grounded forever or temporary medical problems.....It seems to depend on each individuals reaction to fume exposure, I hope with the 787 introducing an electrical compressor for aircon & pressurisation that fume problems will never be evident on that type, let's hope that future designs will follow this example.

Last edited by zlin77; 5th Mar 2015 at 23:30.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 09:56
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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zlin77

Makes sense regarding the Garrett APU...my second lot of ATS symptoms developed on the DC10 and I knew several guys who died at an early age on it as well as four who had "psychological" illnesses.
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Old 2nd Mar 2015, 16:32
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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aerotoxic

I too have had my career ended with this condition. I was a captain on a wide body jet for a UK airline. I went to my doctor at the age of 49, as my wife was concerned that I was in the early stages of dementia. I wasn't. Having tried to cope with my condition, I returned to my doctor, who signed me off sick. When I made that fateful call to the CAA, that was my career over. They asked me my symptoms, and when I told them about my severe memory loss, the lady said I would be getting "the letter". It's not a nice feeling.
At that time I had never heard of Aerotxic Syndrome, until another sufferer suggested I had some tests. I have had tests which confirm that I am "genetically susceptible" (not everyone is), and I have had a blood test which confirms that I have "damage to my central nervous system consistent with organophosphate poisoning". This test was carried out by the worlds leading authority on toxicity. A man with three professorships. There is no other way I could have been exposed to these organophosphates.

This is a real problem which affects many people around the world. I noted Willie Walsh's comments on ITV. How he flew for "18 years" and has not been affected. Well good for you Mr Walsh. If you are not genetically susceptible, it won't bother you. There's a man in my village who has been smoking unfiltered cigarettes for over fifty years, and he hasn't got lung cancer. Not every smoker does.

My problem was so severe, that on occasions, I would get in my car to go somewhere locally, get halfway there and get lost. I have lived in the same locality for almost forty years. On another occasion I was in my local pub when my son walked in. I looked at him and thought "I know him from somewhere". I didn't even recognise my own son. That is how bad it can get.

I could sit here for hours and write about my own experiences, but what is more worrying, is that some of my now ex colleagues who are still flying have contacted me, and they are worried about their own health. They are experiencing cognitive problems, disorientation, respiratory problems. The list goes on.

What the coroner has done in the Westgate case is very significant. Because the evidence he has seen is so convincing, he has made a decision to take action before the inquest is complete "in order to prevent future deaths". The people on this forum haven't seen that evidence. He has, and it's irrefutable.
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Old 2nd Mar 2015, 22:42
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Question.

How many planes in the air at any minute of the day, for the last 30 years. How many people and flight crew cumulatively?

The vast majority of people who are skeptical, are not saying it doesn't happen and can't happen, its just appears to be statistically insignificant.

What that means, its easier to remove the people who may be susceptible than to fix the problem if indeed there is one. This in itself is not unusual. There are other professions where people want to work, but can't for various reasons.
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 01:34
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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rh200

What that means, its easier to remove the people who may be susceptible than to fix the problem if indeed there is one
Your logic is sound it's the execution that is the problem.

Those few that are susceptible don't know it until it's too late.

Any of us would now cringe down in our seat after reading these several pages if we smelled something. The fact that we are trapped and unable to find a breath of fresh air to alleviate our fears is part of the problem.
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 09:11
  #134 (permalink)  
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This issue has been allowed to go on for far too long with governments, airlines and manufacturers trying to keep a lid on it. Finally pilots and cabin crew are realising the full extent of this problem, to say remove the people involved is absurd when it can be as high as 20% of aircrew and frequent passengers who are susceptible.

Many pilots 'medically-impaired' due to toxic cabin air - 2/26/2015 - Flight Global
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 09:21
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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rh200

To put some figures on this, it's about 3% of the population who are unable to detox atall from these chemicals. About 40% will be affected to varying degrees, but can ultimately detox.
As for ways to prevent the problem, that is the easy bit. There are filter kits available now to fit any aircraft. DHL have them on their aircraft for instance. The cost I believe is about 20K per airframe. On the subject of filters, let me relate a situation I was told of from a very good authority. A representative from a filter company gave a presentation to some senior managers from a "very" large UK airline. After his presentation he was shown out of the building by one of the managers. He thanked the chap for coming, but said "you do realise that there is no chance of XX fitting these filters to our aircraft". When asked why, he said "we already pay insurance premiums to cover our pilots if they go sick. There's no way we are going to pay those premiums, and pay for filters to be fitted". So there we have it. They don't actually care.
Back to the numbers of people affected. I know several people from my company who have the symptoms, but until they are made aware of the condition, they don't know what's wrong with them. Several have been mis diagnosed as the doctors don't know about this problem.
To the naysayers I say, if you haven't been affected (yet), good for you. The chances of getting it to the extent that you will be unable to fly are relatively small. But also look at the rates of cancer in the longer serving people in the industry. I was told years ago that the airline industry has the highest death rate of any industry in the world in the first five years of retirement. I cannot back that up with statistics, but I can believe it.

Last edited by explorer61; 4th Mar 2015 at 09:09. Reason: requested by someone
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 09:31
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Those few that are susceptible don't know it until it's too late.
Thats true for some I would think. I would imagine under fairly normal circumstances there would be a distribution people on how it affects them, if there is indeed a problem.

As such a proportion of those might just find it a minor irritant, and then at the other end those who a significant exposure could have irreversible effects.

In effect this isn't much different to other work place effects. I know people who have worked in various occupations, and then one day had a complete allergic reaction to something they have handled for years. Some never able to work again

The bigger issue is if there is cumulative minor effects. That should be easy to sort considering the sample size now is large both in aircrew and time.

This issue has been allowed to go on for far too long with governments, airlines and manufacturers trying to keep a lid on it.
You implying a active conspiracy where one most likely doesn't exist. Over here we have fairly good duty of care legislation. We have also had significant experience with every ones favorite aircraft the 146. These have also been used for charters for mining companies.

Some of those companies like BHP and Rio Tinto don't take kindly to possible health risks to their employees that they could be held responsible for.
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 10:26
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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What tests are involved to determine whether you are genetically susceptible to this issue? I'd like to consider paying for them, because I for one would rather find out before I got I'll. I'm not entirely sure you can separate the exposure during flying from the exposure during normal life, but if I knew I was genetically susceptible, I'd probably jack in commercial flying just to play it safe...
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 12:37
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
What tests are involved to determine whether you are genetically susceptible to this issue? I'd like to consider paying for them, because I for one would rather find out before I got I'll. I'm not entirely sure you can separate the exposure during flying from the exposure during normal life, but if I knew I was genetically susceptible, I'd probably jack in commercial flying just to play it safe...
Unfortunately, the 'scientists' running drug testing and sensitivity testing tend to forget genetics and treat everyone being tested as identical: it makes the statistics so much simpler . The problem being that there is no 'standard distribution'. It is like testing sensitivity to the Sun and not being concerned if the subjects are pale skinned red heads or not. So the results of these sensitivity trials can be a random distribution with one test showing no-one is affected and another showing a large percentage. This seems to be common to all medical and pharmacological testing and is why 'wonder drugs' can be withdrawn after a few months due to bad side effects.

What needs to be done is a genetic assay and allergy testing on all those who have been affected and see if there are any common markers or allergies that could predict sensitivity. A long tedious and sometimes expensive task with those affected wanting the results yesterday, and the beancounters asking for justification for spending money when such a small percentage are affected.
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 17:23
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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A second detection system is your white shirt. I purchased a new one, wore it on one flight, then sent it to Prohealth in Holland for an Organophosphate test. It came back with a positive result for several OPs. Unless M&S is now selling OP laced shirts, it came from the Aircraft.
Hmmmm. You sound very certain. May I point out that unless you know how to properly conduct an experiment, including how to set up controls, the outcome of your little experiment is essentially worthless.

Since you are so certain, then of course you kept your brand new shirt in a sealed plastic bag until you boarded the aircraft, unsealed the bag and put the shirt on after you boarded, took it off just before deplaning, and sealed it in another plastic bag before sending it to the lab?

And you sent an identical brand new shirt bought at the same time from the same place to the same lab for testing as a control?

You didn't? Then you have no idea where the organophosphates came from. None. They may have come from the industrial processes that produced and packaged your shirt. They may have come from your home or your car or any number of other sources where you wore that shirt. Have you had the air in your car tested for organophosphates lately? How about the air in your home?

Have you worn a brand new shirt in your home for several hours while you did typical daily chores and then sent that shirt to the lab for testing? How about your car? If not, why not? Could it be because you had already decided what the source of your problem is?

Are you certain that your car is operating correctly and there are no leaks of any kind into the passenger compartment? Are you certain that the furnace, stove, oven, hot water heater, fireplace, air conditioner, etc in your home are all operating correctly? Have your home and car been inspected with one tenth the frequency that the aircraft you fly has been inspected? If not, why are you so certain that your car and/or home environment is not the source of your problem and the airplane "must" be the problem?
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 18:48
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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PON 1 Test

Dear GS Alpha.
I have contacted my Aerotoxic specialist in Holland and will repost with further information if I need to.

The test you are asking about is a limited DNA panel to test for your genetic type with reference to your PON 1 gene.

This gives you an indication of your ability to process and excrete some toxic chemicals, and specifically organophosphates.

I think it is Prohealth in the Netherlands that can carry out this test, since my memory was so poor at the time I completed this test I have asked the specialist Doctor to confirm this.
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