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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 24th Aug 2019, 21:28
  #19261 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Middle America
Age: 79
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obgraham,

'Don't be all "wah wah it's a fraud" as you have been so far this term.' The person that is sill complaining this term at every campaign rally is none other than Donald J. Trump. "Three million fake votes were cast that cost me the popular vote!" It's the other side of the coin that you don't look at.

"A number of us are quite content with the reality-based approach to the nation's problems:" Who's us? Trump core supporters? Reality-based approach? When is it going to start? Trump's reality-based approach is chaos. That is what we've got so far with one year left on Trump's watch and the chaos is getting worse.

"Suck it up and deal with it." That certainly didn't happen when Obama was in office, so why should it happen now that the highly unstable genius Trump is in office? BTW, Obama's IQ is reported to be higher than Trump's, don't spread that around as Trump will go on a wild rampage on twitter for months.

"Convince the voters to choose your view next time around. Good luck with that, based on the crazy bunch being touted." This isn't going to be as hard as you might think. Trump is helping immensely with his attack tweet bursts, daily reversals on important government topics, etc. In fact it appears that Elizabeth Warren is far, far more stable than loonie Trump.

I noticed you mentioned "Trade Imbalance." What exactly is trade? What makes up the components of trade? Now no fair, don't ask Larry Kudlow or Peter Navarro, they don't have the correct trade makeup answer, neither does Trump.
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 22:12
  #19262 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Turbine, I see you are continuing your traditional approach of looking at something White and trying to figure out how to make it appear Black.

All the best with your steady disbursement of outrage. Let me know how you feel after November 2020.
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 22:45
  #19263 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vendee
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Turbine

One of the things that amazes those of us on the outside peering in is how much pain Trump's followers seem to be willing to shoulder in their fealty toward him.

Today I skimmed over a number of articles in the U.S. press about topics such as reduced growth at the tractor maker John Deere, fewer exports of South Carolina BMWs to China, fewer farm exports, and that 60% of U.S. manufacturers use components from China in their supply chain. In other words, the economies of the U.S. and China are pretty intertwined.

It will be the worker that will be the first to be laid off and yet they call him the chosen one. Even without a job will their fealty hold just because they dig his penchant from breaking things that his being a potty mouthed vulgarian supposedly, and somehow, indicates authenticity?

It will be interesting to watch if this nihilism survives an economic downturn.

Btw, it is sad to note the condition of economic awareness overall in the Western block. If China produces a good or service that I find to be of best value for my needs and preferences, why do people like Trump consider that some sort of international crime? Still shaking my head over this idea that trade in all directions must be perfectly balanced as if it were a scale.
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 23:22
  #19264 (permalink)  
 
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If China produces a good or service that I find to be of best value for my needs and preferences, why do people like Trump consider that some sort of international crime?
Perhaps, Fred, if you had gone to the expense, time and effort to create a product or service, and then go through the usual procedures to protect your intellectual property, only to have a Chinese visitor come over, grab your product or service, return to China and have it made by a poor Chinese worker making 15 cents an hour -- just perhaps, you might think things differently.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 00:39
  #19265 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Perhaps, Fred, if you had gone to the expense, time and effort to create a product or service, and then go through the usual procedures to protect your intellectual property, only to have a Chinese visitor come over, grab your product or service, return to China and have it made by a poor Chinese worker making 15 cents an hour -- just perhaps, you might think things differently.
...but what if I am not purchasing anything to do with intellectual property rights? What if, as is the case with many manufacturers, it is parts in the supply chain I am ordering?

I am not rushing to fight the corner of the Chinese on this, but remember a chunk of intellectual property was transferred voluntarily through technology transfer clauses so businesses could get a foot in what they hoped to be a massive market. They wanted to play.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 04:49
  #19266 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uncle Fred View Post
Still shaking my head over this idea that trade in all directions must be perfectly balanced as if it were a scale.
Indeed. The odds are that most people have massive trade imbalances with their grocery store, pharmacy, car dealership, or gas station. The cash flow is all in one direction - us to them. No one seems to worry much about that (nor should they).





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Old 25th Aug 2019, 04:59
  #19267 (permalink)  
 
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There was some tech transfer to get into China's marketplaces, mandated by the Chinese government as a prerequisite.
The far bigger issue is that the Chinese government and consequently Chinese businesses regard industrial espionage and intellectual property theft as Research & Development and in the case of theft of entertainment media (films/music etc.) as little work, much money.
If you've got Chinese Nationals or Chinese ex-patriots in or around your business or university - you'd better be protecting your property well.
I am not aware of any successes in curbing these pervasive practices.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 10:12
  #19268 (permalink)  
 
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Trump makes it sound like China "stole" technology and gave nothing in return. I donít think US companies are that stupid. Companies negotiated the hand over of some of their low end technology in exchange for access to a huge market. China was an emerging market and there was a lot of money to be made. It was a win-win situation. The big Western companies that I have worked with have done very well out of their China business.

However things are changing, China is not so much of an emerging market, demand for freer trade is valid, but there are better methods than a trade war. Actually some negotiations were starting to work. China was starting to make some concessions. It had agreed to buy more soy beans as an attempt to do something about the trade deficit. The master deal maker has totally screwed up this. Also they had stopped their currency manipulation, as stated by the IMF. Maybe with a bit of good negotiating the technology transfer thing could have been improved.


Some companies used the cheap China Labour force to manufacture their goods. Does the US really want to compete with this? I think the US would be better off keeping a step ahead in technologically advanced products such as planes. Yes, China is entering this market but I really think Boeing can always make better planes than COMAC. (They will recover from the Max issue). Aiming to always be more technologically advanced is a better game to play.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 11:24
  #19269 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Perhaps, Fred, if you had gone to the expense, time and effort to create a product or service, and then go through the usual procedures to protect your intellectual property, only to have a Chinese visitor come over, grab your product or service, return to China and have it made by a poor Chinese worker making 15 cents an hour -- just perhaps, you might think things differently.
Not exactly. If youíre buying a good old American iPhone itíll be manufactured in Shenzhen. Chinese wages arenít exactly third world peasant wages. The average monthly salary in major Chinese Cities like Shenzhen and Shanghai is equivalent to average wages in nations like Latvia, Slovakia or Croatia. Not US or Western European levels but hardly amongst the global poor.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 12:32
  #19270 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post


Not exactly. If youíre buying a good old American iPhone itíll be manufactured in Shenzhen. Chinese wages arenít exactly third world peasant wages. The average monthly salary in major Chinese Cities like Shenzhen and Shanghai is equivalent to average wages in nations like Latvia, Slovakia or Croatia. Not US or Western European levels but hardly amongst the global poor.
Back that up with proof please.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 12:57
  #19271 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Turbine, I see you are continuing your traditional approach of looking at something White and trying to figure out how to make it appear Black.

All the best with your steady disbursement of outrage. Let me know how you feel after November 2020.
ob, A post of an opposite opinion other than yours is consider outrage by you. I consider what you posted to be outlandish BS. A BSer does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 13:01
  #19272 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
Back that up with proof please.
Why most certaintly good sir:

Chinaís median monthly wages in Shanghai ($1,135), Beijing ($983) and Shenzen ($938) are higher than they are in the newest European Union member, Croatia. Croatiaís median net salary is $887 a month. They joined the EU in 2013.

Shanghaiís median wages, in particular, are also greater than two of the newest euro members in the Baltics: Lithuania ($956) and Latvia ($1,005), with Estonia, which joined the euro in 2011, recording a median income of $1,256 per month, according to government figures for 2016.

Just across from the Adriatic Sea on rich Italyís border sits a Chinese-like labor pool. Only they come cheaper, in fact. Chinese workers in Shanghai, Shenzhen, and Beijing, on average, earn more than workers in Albania, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, and new NATO member Montenegro, which has a median income of just $896 a month.
China Wage Levels Equal To Or Surpass Parts Of Europe
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 13:17
  #19273 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
The link is 404'd. Was hoping for something beyond an article, but if thats all you have then ok.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 13:28
  #19274 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,114
MeadowRun
There was some tech transfer to get into China's marketplaces, mandated by the Chinese government as a prerequisite.
The far bigger issue is that the Chinese government and consequently Chinese businesses regard industrial espionage and intellectual property theft as Research & Development and in the case of theft of entertainment media (films/music etc.) as little work, much money.
If you've got Chinese Nationals or Chinese ex-patriots in or around your business or university - you'd better be protecting your property well.
I am not aware of any successes in curbing these pervasive practices.
Cool Guys
Trump makes it sound like China "stole" technology and gave nothing in return. I don’t think US companies are that stupid. Companies negotiated the hand over of some of their low end technology in exchange for access to a huge market. China was an emerging market and there was a lot of money to be made. It was a win-win situation. The big Western companies that I have worked with have done very well out of their China business.

However things are changing, China is not so much of an emerging market, demand for freer trade is valid, but there are better methods than a trade war. Actually some negotiations were starting to work. China was starting to make some concessions. It had agreed to buy more soy beans as an attempt to do something about the trade deficit. The master deal maker has totally screwed up this. Also they had stopped their currency manipulation, as stated by the IMF. Maybe with a bit of good negotiating the technology transfer thing could have been improved.


Some companies used the cheap China Labour force to manufacture their goods. Does the US really want to compete with this? I think the US would be better off keeping a step ahead in technologically advanced products such as planes. Yes, China is entering this market but I really think Boeing can always make better planes than COMAC. (They will recover from the Max issue). Aiming to always be more technologically advanced is a better game to play.
Thank you both for showing us both ends of the string for us to see how far apart we are in our own opinions

Of course in my own experiences I have dealt in China on a wide range of dealings but I choose to avoid calling things neither black nor white, so let the negotiations continue.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 17:29
  #19275 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
Of course in my own experiences I have dealt in China on a wide range of dealings but I choose to avoid calling things neither black nor white, so let the negotiations continue.
OK, the language being used here is temperate. Interesting conversation to watch.
I wish more parties used temperate language. What I just saw on Twitter, is being cited as "I hearbye order American companies to stop doing {something} with China."

I don't think this is something that one can use an on/off switch to achieve,
and
I am pretty sure that the Oval Office does not have that kind of authority, unless the actual trade restriction is confined to the Fentanyl issue.
I suspect that there will be a bipartisan response from the House and Senate that goes something like "nice try, but nope."
Fentanyl is being used as the thin end of the wedge for what is being touted as a broader "stop doing business there" ... anyway, the text of the three or four tweets are here ...
Our Country has lost, stupidly, Trillions of Dollars with China over many years. They have stolen our Intellectual Property at a rate of Hundreds of Billions of Dollars a year, & they want to continue. I won’t let that happen! We don’t need China and, frankly, would be far....9:59 AM ∑ Aug 23, 2019∑Twitter for iPhone
....better off without them. The vast amounts of money made and stolen by China from the United States, year after year, for decades, will and must STOP. Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China, including bringing..
....your companies HOME and making your products in the USA. I will be responding to China’s Tariffs this afternoon. This is a GREAT opportunity for the United States. Also, I am ordering all carriers, including Fed Ex, Amazon, UPS and the Post Office, to SEARCH FOR & REFUSE,....
....all deliveries of Fentanyl from China (or anywhere else!). Fentanyl kills 100,000 Americans a year. President Xi said this would stop - it didn’t. Our Economy, because of our gains in the last 2 1/2 years, is MUCH larger than that of China. We will keep it that way!
Anyway, the headline and the text don't match all that well, but the rhetoric is getting less civil.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 18:39
  #19276 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
but the rhetoric is getting less civil.
lonewolf

Are you referring to a less civil rhetoric here on JB, in the tweets from Trump, or both?

I am troubled when I read such tweets as I believe there should always be at least a veneer of diplomacy when referring to other nations. Saying the U.S. doesn't need China and would be better off without it is a rather intemperate outburst that serves no one well.

There is no question that there are legitimate grievances to air and try to work out, but Trump's schtick of barking around and then pretending to work a deal is so 1980s real estate modish. As I said though, his base seems to dig this nihilism. It is time for a mature and savvy leader to try to iron this out. Trump, in the role of a tantrum toddler, is only doing more harm than good.

@Cool Guys

I agree that keeping one step ahead technologically is part of the solution to the theft of property. But another pillar has to be a robust cyber defense. I am not blaming the victim here, but it does make one wonder if the sorry state of cyber defences has played a role in the Chinese ability to Hoover up all and assundry secrets.

With cybersecurity so patchwork, it practically begged an intrusion.


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Old 25th Aug 2019, 19:31
  #19277 (permalink)  
 
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Lone wolf

One other point. You indicate in your posts that you hail from Texas. Let me pose a question.

Is it conceivable that Trump, insulting as he is to everyone and everything, would even go so far as to besmirch the guitar playing of the greatest to ever have picked up the instrument--none other than the late and legendary Stevie Ray Vaughan?

Would not your esteemed state rise up in one voice and say "You Sir have crossed a line that should never be crossed!"

For those of you who have never listened to SRV and Johnny Copeland conjour up the blues then you have not heard masters at work. If the USA had given nothing else to the rest of the world the bequeathment of the music of SRV would alone be enough. Seriously...
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 12:02
  #19278 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uncle Fred View Post
Is it conceivable that Trump, insulting as he is to everyone and everything, would even go so far as to besmirch the guitar playing of the greatest to ever have picked up the instrument--none other than the late and legendary Stevie Ray Vaughan? Would not your esteemed state rise up in one voice and say "You Sir have crossed a line that should never be crossed!"
I certainly would. I expect that no few Americans would feel similarly, to include many beyond Texas who appreciate SRV. (Of all the helicopters in the world why did he climb into that one? *sad face*) {I was pissed off at the President regarding his nastiness in towards the late John McCain, and the whole treatment vis a vis USS McCain (which wasn't even named for the Senator, but rather for an ancestor ...). However, I freely admit my bias, having been an naval officer and naval aviator, so my sentiments for the late Senator are not puerly objective.

But I am not sure that the President is even aware of who Stevie Ray Vaughan is/was.

there should always be at least a veneer of diplomacy when referring to other nations. Saying the U.S. doesn't need China and would be better off without it is a rather intemperate outburst that serves no one well.
One can make the point without being so crass, yes, but it would seem that the Twitterer in Chief prefers his utterances to come out unfiltered, unlike most people in a similar position. At some point, the "shock value" wears off, if it ever had any value, and now it's just being rude for the sake of being rude. (Or so it seems to me).
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 16:40
  #19279 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of the time I find the anti Trump hysteria excessive. I mean I donít think anyone would say he isnít an A$$, and he's certainly not very intelligent, but seeing CNNís heads pop with the hatred is actually quite entertaining.

And yet, every now and then we are reminded just how big a dunce the guy actually is, like him wanting to nuke hurricanes. Even a school kid would know releasing radiation into a giant storm wouldn't be good for anybody.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49471093
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 17:13
  #19280 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
A lot of the time I find the anti Trump hysteria excessive. I mean I donít think anyone would say he isnít an A$$, and he's certainly not very intelligent, but seeing CNNís heads pop with the hatred is actually quite entertaining.

And yet, every now and then we are reminded just how big a dunce the guy actually is, like him wanting to nuke hurricanes. Even a school kid would know releasing radiation into a giant storm wouldn't be good for anybody.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49471093
If the hurricane is on a path towards USA it would be America First, so I guess it is OK then?
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